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RE 2) mirror-less cameras now use hybrid focus - both contrast and phase detection, also they have much more focus points to work with. Plus shooting speed shou

RE 2) mirror-less cameras now use hybrid focus - both contrast and phase detection, also they have much more focus points to work with. Plus shooting speed should also be quicker in mirror-less (not sure if super high-end DSLR is still close) - sony a6000 gives you 11 fps of continuous shooting rate

jfindley 10y ago
Some of them have started doing this - tech is always marching forward. However no mirrorless system in the world comes close to a highend DSLR. The Sony a6000 is probably the best mirrorless system I'm aware of right now for autofocus, but it still can't come close to what a skilled (for example) Nikon D5 user can do. There are a number of reasons for this, some of which are: 1) One dimensional phase detect sensors, rather than the (more expensive) cross-hatch ones used in DSLRs, which don't perform as well with movement or low light conditions. 2) Reduced processing power, lack of dedicated autofocus processing silicon, and less sophisicated data pipeline in general. 3) Greatly reduced user control. DSLRs, pro ones especially, have enormously sophisiticated control systems, and the ability to completely switch setup very quickly. There are a huge number of ways I can influence what descions the autofocus system makes on my cameras, and I use them to make sure the camera corretly interprets what part of what object it should be focussing on. I probably want the camera to be focussing on the head of the bird (rather than the wingtip, which is typically what a m4/3 system will go for), but that's unlikely to be in the exact centre of the frame, and definitely isn't the closest or most distinct object in the scene, so I need to tell the camera (very quickly and accurately) what it should do. Small mirrorless cameras with limited physical buttons and less tightly controllable focus systems make this very hard. Highend DSLRs can also beat that continuous shooting rate - a Nikon D5, for example, will do 12fps (or 14fps with the mirror locked up). However frames per second isn't always relevent - you're going to be at 1/2000s minimum for this sort of shot, which means that even at 12fps you're capturing only ~ 0.6% of the time. If there's one specific moment you're targetting, even at very high fps, holding the shutter down is a bad strategy. It's useful in some situations (fps is important for pro sports photography for example), but it's often less important than a lot of people seem to believe.
- CWuestefeld 10y ago
  I shoot with both a Pentax K-30 (a DSLR that you'd classify as pretty decent pro-sumer, but about 3-year-old tech) and an Olympus OM-D E-M5ii (a mirrorless m43 that is one of the best available for this technology - although the Sony has a better sensor). And a caveat to this: I'm a really crappy bird photographer, I do mostly landscape. DSLRs, pro ones especially, have enormously sophisiticated control systems... There are a huge number of ways I can influence what descions the autofocus system makes If anything, the control system in my m43 camera is more sophisticated. And the autofocus is a big part of that. Similar to many cell phones, my m43 camera has a touch screen that allows me to tap the part of the scene I'd like it to use for focusing. This is a better system than any DSLR I've used. I doubt that in autopilot it would pick the wingtip: because it's in motion it's likely to be less sharp than, say, the head. Regarding the lag in the EVF, it's certainly noticeable. But I don't see that as a problem in this use case. My experience with capturing moving subjects is that you don't even try to get that one single perfect shot. Instead you're going to be in high-speed shooting mode, grabbing many images of the scene over at least a second or so, in order to pick the best of the set. In this case, the frame rate really is important. Finally, there's a real advantage to a mirrorless camera for the landscape work I usually do. A lot of the shots I'm looking for are long exposures where it's imperative for the camera to be absolutely still (and I've found that your approach shouldn't be "use a tripod when necessary", but instead "always use a tripod unless it's impractical to do so"). Even the internal operations of the camera can introduce unwanted vibrations. Most DSLRs (unfortunately my DSLR is not one of these) allow you lock up the mirror, which is the largest offender, but that precludes use of the optical viewfinder. But even farther, my mirrorless m43 also allows switching to full-electronic shutter, so there's nothing mechanical at all to shake the camera; I'm not aware of any DSLR that has such a mode, although there may be something out there.
  - jfindley 10y ago
    Please don't take this as any sort of put-down, but I definitely wouldn't regard the Pentax K-30 as "decent pro-sumer". It's an entry level DSLR. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that - some really excellent photographers use similar equipment and get amazing results - but it's not really what I was writing about. I also note that your m4/3 camera appears to cost almost double what your DSLR does despite having a smaller sensor (which is my far the most expensive part in any camera body), so it's not surprising it has rather more features. The cameras I was really talking about are professional and semi professional tools - which right now is cameras like the canon 1dx II, nikon d5 (pro) and canon 5d III, nikon d810 (semi-pro). Pentax, I'm afraid, doesn't really have anything comparable right now. The control systems of these bodies are very, very different to what you're used to - the learning curve is far steeper, they're less forgiving of mistakes, but in good hands are remarkably effective tools. They also cost rather more - between USD $2700 and $6500 for the body alone. Holding the release down and choosing the best image of the set is a common way to capture images - as I explained however, if there's a specific moment you want to capture you're very unlikely to get it this way. If you're taking a series of shots of something moving and you just want the best one? Well then buffer size becomes at least as important, if not more so, than framerate. It doesn't really help if you capture 11fps but can only do so for one second when the person next to you can do 9fps for 20 seconds. I'd also note that many users of high-end DSLRs have spent this money partly because they are indeed able to get that single perfect shot, due to lots and lots of practice. You're absolutely correct about mirror induced vibration being a real problem for some shots. Electronic first curtain shutters are actually present in some highend DSLRs (the nikon d810 for example) - but as you say, mirrorless systems tend to be excellent at landscape photography (although sadly tilt/shift lenses for mirrorless cameras are few and far between). The point I was attempt to make was that DSLRs are masters of flexibility - m4/3 cameras do some things exceedingly well, and some things not quite well. DSLRs tend to be good at pretty much everything, if you can live with the size, weight and cost. A great deal of professionals have both - mirrorless systems for the times when they work well, and a DSLR for everything else. P.s. in response to your paragraph on wingtip focus I've a couple of points. Firstly, touchscreen focus is great for many things, but it REALLY is not going to help you capture a fast moving bird in flight. Secondly, the head and the wings are both moving, in multiple directions at once. Neither are differently "sharp" to the autofocus sensor. The reason wingtip focus is such an incredibly common error with birds in flight photography is because the wingtip is closer, depending on the angle may sometimes move in front of the head, has more contrast and tends to be bigger (depending on the species). All these factors combine, and thus why it's a very common issue. Note that you'll only see it if you have a pretty shallow depth of field - which you're less likely to have on a small sensor camera, or with a slow lens.

jfindley 10y ago

Some of them have started doing this - tech is always marching forward. However no mirrorless system in the world comes close to a highend DSLR. The Sony a6000 is probably the best mirrorless system I'm aware of right now for autofocus, but it still can't come close to what a skilled (for example) Nikon D5 user can do. There are a number of reasons for this, some of which are: 1) One dimensional phase detect sensors, rather than the (more expensive) cross-hatch ones used in DSLRs, which don't perform as well with movement or low light conditions. 2) Reduced processing power, lack of dedicated autofocus processing silicon, and less sophisicated data pipeline in general. 3) Greatly reduced user control. DSLRs, pro ones especially, have enormously sophisiticated control systems, and the ability to completely switch setup very quickly. There are a huge number of ways I can influence what descions the autofocus system makes on my cameras, and I use them to make sure the camera corretly interprets what part of what object it should be focussing on. I probably want the camera to be focussing on the head of the bird (rather than the wingtip, which is typically what a m4/3 system will go for), but that's unlikely to be in the exact centre of the frame, and definitely isn't the closest or most distinct object in the scene, so I need to tell the camera (very quickly and accurately) what it should do. Small mirrorless cameras with limited physical buttons and less tightly controllable focus systems make this very hard. Highend DSLRs can also beat that continuous shooting rate - a Nikon D5, for example, will do 12fps (or 14fps with the mirror locked up). However frames per second isn't always relevent - you're going to be at 1/2000s minimum for this sort of shot, which means that even at 12fps you're capturing only ~ 0.6% of the time. If there's one specific moment you're targetting, even at very high fps, holding the shutter down is a bad strategy. It's useful in some situations (fps is important for pro sports photography for example), but it's often less important than a lot of people seem to believe.

CWuestefeld 10y ago
I shoot with both a Pentax K-30 (a DSLR that you'd classify as pretty decent pro-sumer, but about 3-year-old tech) and an Olympus OM-D E-M5ii (a mirrorless m43 that is one of the best available for this technology - although the Sony has a better sensor). And a caveat to this: I'm a really crappy bird photographer, I do mostly landscape. DSLRs, pro ones especially, have enormously sophisiticated control systems... There are a huge number of ways I can influence what descions the autofocus system makes If anything, the control system in my m43 camera is more sophisticated. And the autofocus is a big part of that. Similar to many cell phones, my m43 camera has a touch screen that allows me to tap the part of the scene I'd like it to use for focusing. This is a better system than any DSLR I've used. I doubt that in autopilot it would pick the wingtip: because it's in motion it's likely to be less sharp than, say, the head. Regarding the lag in the EVF, it's certainly noticeable. But I don't see that as a problem in this use case. My experience with capturing moving subjects is that you don't even try to get that one single perfect shot. Instead you're going to be in high-speed shooting mode, grabbing many images of the scene over at least a second or so, in order to pick the best of the set. In this case, the frame rate really is important. Finally, there's a real advantage to a mirrorless camera for the landscape work I usually do. A lot of the shots I'm looking for are long exposures where it's imperative for the camera to be absolutely still (and I've found that your approach shouldn't be "use a tripod when necessary", but instead "always use a tripod unless it's impractical to do so"). Even the internal operations of the camera can introduce unwanted vibrations. Most DSLRs (unfortunately my DSLR is not one of these) allow you lock up the mirror, which is the largest offender, but that precludes use of the optical viewfinder. But even farther, my mirrorless m43 also allows switching to full-electronic shutter, so there's nothing mechanical at all to shake the camera; I'm not aware of any DSLR that has such a mode, although there may be something out there.
- jfindley 10y ago
  Please don't take this as any sort of put-down, but I definitely wouldn't regard the Pentax K-30 as "decent pro-sumer". It's an entry level DSLR. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that - some really excellent photographers use similar equipment and get amazing results - but it's not really what I was writing about. I also note that your m4/3 camera appears to cost almost double what your DSLR does despite having a smaller sensor (which is my far the most expensive part in any camera body), so it's not surprising it has rather more features. The cameras I was really talking about are professional and semi professional tools - which right now is cameras like the canon 1dx II, nikon d5 (pro) and canon 5d III, nikon d810 (semi-pro). Pentax, I'm afraid, doesn't really have anything comparable right now. The control systems of these bodies are very, very different to what you're used to - the learning curve is far steeper, they're less forgiving of mistakes, but in good hands are remarkably effective tools. They also cost rather more - between USD $2700 and $6500 for the body alone. Holding the release down and choosing the best image of the set is a common way to capture images - as I explained however, if there's a specific moment you want to capture you're very unlikely to get it this way. If you're taking a series of shots of something moving and you just want the best one? Well then buffer size becomes at least as important, if not more so, than framerate. It doesn't really help if you capture 11fps but can only do so for one second when the person next to you can do 9fps for 20 seconds. I'd also note that many users of high-end DSLRs have spent this money partly because they are indeed able to get that single perfect shot, due to lots and lots of practice. You're absolutely correct about mirror induced vibration being a real problem for some shots. Electronic first curtain shutters are actually present in some highend DSLRs (the nikon d810 for example) - but as you say, mirrorless systems tend to be excellent at landscape photography (although sadly tilt/shift lenses for mirrorless cameras are few and far between). The point I was attempt to make was that DSLRs are masters of flexibility - m4/3 cameras do some things exceedingly well, and some things not quite well. DSLRs tend to be good at pretty much everything, if you can live with the size, weight and cost. A great deal of professionals have both - mirrorless systems for the times when they work well, and a DSLR for everything else. P.s. in response to your paragraph on wingtip focus I've a couple of points. Firstly, touchscreen focus is great for many things, but it REALLY is not going to help you capture a fast moving bird in flight. Secondly, the head and the wings are both moving, in multiple directions at once. Neither are differently "sharp" to the autofocus sensor. The reason wingtip focus is such an incredibly common error with birds in flight photography is because the wingtip is closer, depending on the angle may sometimes move in front of the head, has more contrast and tends to be bigger (depending on the species). All these factors combine, and thus why it's a very common issue. Note that you'll only see it if you have a pretty shallow depth of field - which you're less likely to have on a small sensor camera, or with a slow lens.