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The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries And men have conscription in

by Kenji 10y ago

The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries And men have conscription in 2016. The problem is that feminism is loudest where it's least needed. I.e. in the western world, where women are arguably even better off than men in many cases. I want to see feminism in islamo-fascist countries, where it's needed, not in the free west.

legodt 10y ago
Hahahahahahaha. No. Women in the West do not have it better than men by a long shot. We have a presidential candidate threatenjng to sue to silence all accusers of sexual assault towards him. We have trans women of color being killed daily in the streets with no repercussions. And we have white dudes on the internet claiming conscription is just as bad as living under a society dominated by rape culture. Get out of your own head
- Kenji 10y ago
  Rape culture? In the west? Explain. Rape incidents have never been lower in America than in the last few years, as shown by fbi.gov and other governmental intitutes. And this despite many efforts of encouraging victims of rape to speak out. And despite the fact that falsely accusing someone of rape has no repercussions whatsoever.
  - legodt 10y ago
    Rape culture is not measured quantitatively by rapes reported/estimated. Please either go back to your men's rights hideyhole or actively get off the internet and start speaking to women active in the space of feminism to educate yourself on the subject. I will not be responding to you further
    - Kenji 10y ago
      Evidence or gtfo. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I presented my evidence in the form of official FBI statistics.
      - legodt 10y ago
        Rape culture isn't about rapes. It's about a pervasive culture of misogyny that constantly demeans, shames, and objectifies women. Please go out and become educated on the subject rather than getting all of your information on this complex, multifaceted subject matter.
        Kenji 10y ago
        I'd love to be educated about this topic. I am always eager to learn new things and broaden my horizons. I don't shy away from complex, multifaceted subject matters. It's just that, to learn, I need facts. I need something tangible and you fail to give me that.
        legodt 10y ago
        https://youtu.be/KLMVqnyTo_0 https://youtu.be/KLMVqnyTo_0 Get cracking. There are literally decades of social discourse you are behind on.
        zimpenfish 10y ago
        Does this help? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/08/this-is-rape-culture-after-trump-video-thousands-of-women-share-sexual-assault-stories/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/08/this-... Or this? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/15/donald-trump-words-what-rape-culture-looks-like https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/15/donald-trump...
        forgottenpass 10y ago
        Rape culture isn't about rapes. Perhaps using more accurate names would make the education you're asking the parent poster to go get more accessible.
    - lixquid 10y ago
      It seems detrimental to the cause to simply say "You are wrong, your evidence is wrong, and I'm not going to tell you why.", let alone the unnecessary insults.
      - legodt 10y ago
        I am not going to spend the paragraphs of effort to define my terms to somebody who has clearly gone through their life without bothering to even try to understand feminism. They have to go out and educate themselves at this point.
        lixquid 10y ago
        Why? The onus isn't on a person who has given you the evidence to prove you wrong to invalidate their own evidence. You don't have to "spend the paragraphs of effort", just provide something which shows their evidence, which they base their stance on, is incorrect.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  Not that it makes it ok but far more men than women are killed in the streets without repercussions. Men are also way more represented in prison which I think has an undeniable rape culture. That's not even touching on male underrepresentation in higher education... Men and women both face unique challenges in the west. In many very real ways men are getting the short end of the stick. The problem a lot of people have with western feminism is that you can't even discuss such things or point out how the standard feminist narrative harms men.
  - legodt 10y ago
    Parent post here. And, you know what? You're very right about a lot of things. You might be really interested in hearing Bell Hooks speak (she has a lot of awesome talks up on YouTube). She talks a great deal about how feminism is for everyone and the patriarchal structures we live under harm both men and women greatly. Men being killed in the street are not being killed for being men, unlike women who are killed for being trans or refusing sex. Do you see the difference here?
    - exstudent2 10y ago
      We probably agree on many things but I do fundamentally disagree with the concept of a "patriarchy" (in the west). There's no need to gender what is essentially a synonym for institutionalized power. A lot of that power favors women (c.f. our educational system).
      - legodt 10y ago
        Okay, after that comment, I don't think I agree with you on anything. Educators are not in positions of power and we have not advanced past a society where gender can be separated from the spaces we inhabit. This weird victim complex of denying feminism is getting way too crazy
        GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
        Educators are only in a position of power in the eyes of a child.
- throwaway1892 10y ago
  " being killed daily in the streets " Do you have a source for that?
  - legodt 10y ago
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.avp.org/storage/documents/ncavp_transhvfactsheet.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjy_JWT2fjPAhXh0FQKHWmzC6AQFgguMAI&usg=AFQjCNHHLiCA_SB2bhZYm7ZWwzi3cKiQHA&sig2=1Cl-fWumCZWQ-79At5pn2g https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://...
    - throwaway1892 10y ago
      From the front page of the site you linked (avp.org) : "22nd reported killing of a transgender/gender non-conforming person NCAVP has responded to in 2016" So it's not daily, but there are multiple instances of it. Edit: Also, I would not consider avp.org as a neutral sources on this matter considering their agenda.
dogma1138 10y ago
>And men have conscription in 2016. The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription but still an active one nonetheless) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard. That said as far as conflict goes there are biological reasons to favor men on average they are considerably stronger and while it's not pleasant to hear they are not as important for the reproductive cycle as women. One man can impregnate virtually an unlimited amount of women especially with IVF while on the other hand women are effectively the reproductive bottleneck of our species, hence the side that loses a larger population of it's women would be at a great disadvantage. And while this might not be consciously being considered like many things unconsciously this is a pretty important factor - "save the women and children first" isn't some old fashioned patriarchal gender role, this is just an outcome of a biological constraint that affects us as a species. EDIT: As the poster below me gracefully reminded I forgot about the Swiss.
- Kenji 10y ago
  The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard. Get your facts straight. Norway has compulsory conscription. So does Switzerland. So does Turkey (well, after what's happened there in the last few years, you truly cannot consider it 'western' anymore, but it's a country that wants into the EU). Germany only very recently suspended conscription. It is still a problem. Israel is one of the few countries where I can at least see why they have conscription, they permanently have to be on guard because they are surrounded by countries whose leaders are outspoken about wanting to eradicate them completely.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. Out of the 60-70K eligible men and women less than 10,000 are conscripted each year out of their choice. And yes you are right I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. It's also important to be mentioned that many countries that practice conscription also offer a "civil service" path including Switzerland which means you can be conscripted to the police, firefighters/EMT, and even into social work. And TBH I'm actually a big supporter of "conscription" at least the Civil Service/Zivildienst type where young men and women are "forced" to give 1 or 2 years of their life to better society, it doesn't mean they are or should be sent to war, but I do find the idea of a compulsory paid community service somewhat appealing. And no I don't count Turkey as a western country any more since it's political, judicial and educational systems have been gutted and there is virtually no more free press left in the country.

by Kenji 10y ago

legodt 10y ago

Hahahahahahaha. No. Women in the West do not have it better than men by a long shot. We have a presidential candidate threatenjng to sue to silence all accusers of sexual assault towards him. We have trans women of color being killed daily in the streets with no repercussions. And we have white dudes on the internet claiming conscription is just as bad as living under a society dominated by rape culture. Get out of your own head

Kenji 10y ago
Rape culture? In the west? Explain. Rape incidents have never been lower in America than in the last few years, as shown by fbi.gov and other governmental intitutes. And this despite many efforts of encouraging victims of rape to speak out. And despite the fact that falsely accusing someone of rape has no repercussions whatsoever.
- legodt 10y ago
  Rape culture is not measured quantitatively by rapes reported/estimated. Please either go back to your men's rights hideyhole or actively get off the internet and start speaking to women active in the space of feminism to educate yourself on the subject. I will not be responding to you further
  - Kenji 10y ago
    Evidence or gtfo. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I presented my evidence in the form of official FBI statistics.
    - legodt 10y ago
      Rape culture isn't about rapes. It's about a pervasive culture of misogyny that constantly demeans, shames, and objectifies women. Please go out and become educated on the subject rather than getting all of your information on this complex, multifaceted subject matter.
      - Kenji 10y ago
        I'd love to be educated about this topic. I am always eager to learn new things and broaden my horizons. I don't shy away from complex, multifaceted subject matters. It's just that, to learn, I need facts. I need something tangible and you fail to give me that.
        legodt 10y ago
        https://youtu.be/KLMVqnyTo_0 https://youtu.be/KLMVqnyTo_0 Get cracking. There are literally decades of social discourse you are behind on.
        zimpenfish 10y ago
        Does this help? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/08/this-is-rape-culture-after-trump-video-thousands-of-women-share-sexual-assault-stories/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/08/this-... Or this? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/15/donald-trump-words-what-rape-culture-looks-like https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/15/donald-trump...
      - forgottenpass 10y ago
        Rape culture isn't about rapes. Perhaps using more accurate names would make the education you're asking the parent poster to go get more accessible.
  - lixquid 10y ago
    It seems detrimental to the cause to simply say "You are wrong, your evidence is wrong, and I'm not going to tell you why.", let alone the unnecessary insults.
    - legodt 10y ago
      I am not going to spend the paragraphs of effort to define my terms to somebody who has clearly gone through their life without bothering to even try to understand feminism. They have to go out and educate themselves at this point.
      - lixquid 10y ago
        Why? The onus isn't on a person who has given you the evidence to prove you wrong to invalidate their own evidence. You don't have to "spend the paragraphs of effort", just provide something which shows their evidence, which they base their stance on, is incorrect.
exstudent2 10y ago
Not that it makes it ok but far more men than women are killed in the streets without repercussions. Men are also way more represented in prison which I think has an undeniable rape culture. That's not even touching on male underrepresentation in higher education... Men and women both face unique challenges in the west. In many very real ways men are getting the short end of the stick. The problem a lot of people have with western feminism is that you can't even discuss such things or point out how the standard feminist narrative harms men.
- legodt 10y ago
  Parent post here. And, you know what? You're very right about a lot of things. You might be really interested in hearing Bell Hooks speak (she has a lot of awesome talks up on YouTube). She talks a great deal about how feminism is for everyone and the patriarchal structures we live under harm both men and women greatly. Men being killed in the street are not being killed for being men, unlike women who are killed for being trans or refusing sex. Do you see the difference here?
  - exstudent2 10y ago
    We probably agree on many things but I do fundamentally disagree with the concept of a "patriarchy" (in the west). There's no need to gender what is essentially a synonym for institutionalized power. A lot of that power favors women (c.f. our educational system).
    - legodt 10y ago
      Okay, after that comment, I don't think I agree with you on anything. Educators are not in positions of power and we have not advanced past a society where gender can be separated from the spaces we inhabit. This weird victim complex of denying feminism is getting way too crazy
      - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
        Educators are only in a position of power in the eyes of a child.
throwaway1892 10y ago
" being killed daily in the streets " Do you have a source for that?
- legodt 10y ago
  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.avp.org/storage/documents/ncavp_transhvfactsheet.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjy_JWT2fjPAhXh0FQKHWmzC6AQFgguMAI&usg=AFQjCNHHLiCA_SB2bhZYm7ZWwzi3cKiQHA&sig2=1Cl-fWumCZWQ-79At5pn2g https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://...
  - throwaway1892 10y ago
    From the front page of the site you linked (avp.org) : "22nd reported killing of a transgender/gender non-conforming person NCAVP has responded to in 2016" So it's not daily, but there are multiple instances of it. Edit: Also, I would not consider avp.org as a neutral sources on this matter considering their agenda.

dogma1138 10y ago

>And men have conscription in 2016. The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription but still an active one nonetheless) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard. That said as far as conflict goes there are biological reasons to favor men on average they are considerably stronger and while it's not pleasant to hear they are not as important for the reproductive cycle as women. One man can impregnate virtually an unlimited amount of women especially with IVF while on the other hand women are effectively the reproductive bottleneck of our species, hence the side that loses a larger population of it's women would be at a great disadvantage. And while this might not be consciously being considered like many things unconsciously this is a pretty important factor - "save the women and children first" isn't some old fashioned patriarchal gender role, this is just an outcome of a biological constraint that affects us as a species. EDIT: As the poster below me gracefully reminded I forgot about the Swiss.

Kenji 10y ago
The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard. Get your facts straight. Norway has compulsory conscription. So does Switzerland. So does Turkey (well, after what's happened there in the last few years, you truly cannot consider it 'western' anymore, but it's a country that wants into the EU). Germany only very recently suspended conscription. It is still a problem. Israel is one of the few countries where I can at least see why they have conscription, they permanently have to be on guard because they are surrounded by countries whose leaders are outspoken about wanting to eradicate them completely.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. Out of the 60-70K eligible men and women less than 10,000 are conscripted each year out of their choice. And yes you are right I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. It's also important to be mentioned that many countries that practice conscription also offer a "civil service" path including Switzerland which means you can be conscripted to the police, firefighters/EMT, and even into social work. And TBH I'm actually a big supporter of "conscription" at least the Civil Service/Zivildienst type where young men and women are "forced" to give 1 or 2 years of their life to better society, it doesn't mean they are or should be sent to war, but I do find the idea of a compulsory paid community service somewhat appealing. And no I don't count Turkey as a western country any more since it's political, judicial and educational systems have been gutted and there is virtually no more free press left in the country.