5 ms·

I don't know how to reconcile Linus's track record is of indisputable brilliance and success (I use Linux and Git on a daily basis and am eternally grateful for

I don't know how to reconcile Linus's track record is of indisputable brilliance and success (I use Linux and Git on a daily basis and am eternally grateful for both), with the fact that I would absolutely DESPISE working with a peer with the kinds of attitudes and opinions on coding that Linus has. I think the problem I have is that a lot of people use Linus's examples and stories as justification for their own suboptimal interpersonal skills, overly-clever code that only they understand, but without the same level of brilliance or track record to justify it. Ultimately I think Linus's contributions to Software are pantheon, but he should not be looked to for imitation or lessons. His lessons for success are detrimental to the vast majority of software engineers.

johan_larson 10y ago
Has Linus written at length about how to write code well? Or do his notions of it have to be inferred from his actions and shorter commentary?
Noseshine 10y ago
You make claim after claim, and I think they do need substantiating evidence. After all, I find it highly unlikely that if he were even 10% as bad as you make it sound he would be the head of one of the most successful projects - especially since everybody working with him does so voluntarily. There would have been breaks long ago. The fact that the Linux kernel held together under the original author loudly speaks against assumptions of "bad interpersonal skills" on the side of Linus.
- YCode 10y ago
  Some food for thought: http://www.computerworld.com/article/3004387/it-management/how-bad-a-boss-is-linus-torvalds.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3004387/it-management/h... "I’m not a nice person, and I don’t care about you. I care about the technology and the kernel — that’s what’s important to me."
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    See what I already wrote. This is like marketing research - what do you believe, what people tell you or the data about what they actually do? Because the data say what I already wrote. So you might as well interpret this as "Linus is a very humble guy" and have better support from the data. Or, alternatively, you can believe that a really mean person who doesn't care about others and behaves badly still managed to hold the kernel developers together. Sure, a single or even a few discontent developers can't easily fork the kernel - but if there would really have been a problem even a tenth as large as claimed by some (and I've never seen any of them actually having had any personal contact with Linus) they would long ago have forked. See node.js/io.js, OpenOffice, and other prominent examples for what happens when developers are not satisfied with the project's leadership.
    - YCode 10y ago
      I don't understand what this has to do with refuting the original claim: > Ultimately I think Linus's contributions to Software are pantheon, but he should not be looked to for imitation or lessons. His lessons for success are detrimental to the vast majority of software engineers. You're not supplying any examples others can learn from or benefit from imitating, you're just asserting they must exist.
      - Noseshine 10y ago
        Uhm... this is again backwards. I'm not making any claims - I'm responding to others who do. And I did (still) provide evidence: The Linux kernel project itself. Instead of individual anecdotes or some carefully selected email or sentences taken out of context I point to the whole project as the final outcome measurement. See what I wrote?
- majewsky 10y ago
  I won't argue with your main point, but a fair share of kernel devs are probably not working there voluntarily, since they write kernel code for their employer.
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    But this is backwards! You don't become a kernel developer by being assigned to the job by your employer. Instead, employers hire people who are kernel developers. Source: I myself contributed a teensy tiny bit to the network stack loooong ago (2.4 kernel), and I worked with real kernel developers when I worked at one of the major Linux companies and for them with large (mostly US) software companies.
  - ptomato 10y ago
    I'd expect that most devs capable of writing reasonable Linux kernel code would not have difficulty finding employment somewhere else doing something else.
palunon 10y ago
Linus works directly with a small number of people. They are not bothered by his abrasive personality. The rest is free to work with another maintainer if they wish to... But yeah, don't try to mimic him on people skills. I don't think he ever said it was a good idea to do so...
optionalparens 10y ago
I get what you are saying and I agree somewhat, but there are also some lessons to be learned from Linus and things to consider. I especially agree that many lesser talented people use his behavior as a justification for their own. I disagree that at least some of his lessons or behavior is detrimental. A good realization in life that many of us have is, "Most people are wrong about most things most of the time." This feels sometimes like it applies by an order of magnitude to programming. I think Linus has a style that deals with this reality head-on and it certainly is not for everyone. One needs to perhaps not be exactly like Linus, but draw some insight from what he does. First, he is bluntly honest with people and there is virtue there. You can argue there is a polite way to be honest, yet sometimes I wonder if I have found it. For huge parts of my career I made my life harder or even self-sabotaged myself by being overly polite to people. I was always assuming (and often still do) that I am wrong and they are right. Further, I give people the benefit of the doubt, try to help them save face in front of others even when wrong, and hear them out before making judgements. It sounds solid and is many ways a healthy attitude for life in general as well as programming. The problem that arises is that people are people. It is true that people will take advantage of you. It is true sometimes if you give them an inch, they will take ten. It is true stupid people often get ahead. More often the answer is simply people don't get the message. You can sit and do a code review with someone, ask them politely to do something, send an email, have a lunch chat, whatever, and the message still does not get across with most programmers. You can say that is bad communication or "my fault," but actually I am speaking more about what I observe rather as a whole than my own personal experience. I have had the privilege of working with best friends for small parts of my career, and even then this was an issue. I can't imagine people with better textbook communication than we did, but maybe what we needed was more Linus-style communication. Sometimes the advice or knowledge is beyond colleagues, and they'll even say, "Yeah, oops, I know you said to do X, but I did Y, my bad." That doesn't help you in project and getting things done, especially if it means minimum someone spends time to fix mistakes they know they should have never made. If you are direct or even a bit abrasive, there is no ambiguity. I grew up in two different cultures side-by-side and traveled the world at various points, living abroad for periods too. Without providing too much PII, I will say that my experience with American culture is that it is very polite, understanding, apologetic (Canadians get this rep.), relatively open, and welcoming. People in American workplaces are on the one hand uptight, more wound up, extremely dishonest, very opportunistic, melodramatic, and a host of other negative traits. On the other hand, Americans are very precise, thoughtful, at least feign listening to you, clever, and methodical. Compare that to another culture that I'd describe as masters of improv, extremely practical, open, honest, and yet sloppy, self-centered, arrogant, overconfident, and disorganized. Neither culture is better than the other, and like Linus, his style just represents one view point of dealing with programmers that is not really better or worse than most others that work. I will say that in the second culture I mention, things get done faster for certain types of work. The openness aspect also really matches a part of what Linus does. People tell you exactly what they think of you. Sometimes it's really hurtful such as telling you that you look "fatter" one day vs. another. They don't think of it as malicious though because from their perspective, they think something is wrong and they are trying to help. By pointing out you look like you are gaining weight, you might be surprised to know what is really going on is they think you might be sick and want to take care of you. They think you might be eating bad and want to feed you better food. Sometimes, sure, they are just being dicks. One can think of what Linus says as just a philosophy that won't work for everyone. Someone telling you exactly what you did wrong and not trying to be diplomatic, cute, or passive aggressive about it ensures the message is clear. It helps you in that you may never make that mistake again. There is no ambiguity hopefully and you either do what he says or decide all of it is not worth your time. Playing games, working people with you do not like, pretending to be nice, and blindly following cultural idiosyncrasies are not things I personally enjoy. Some people need those layers of protection or to live a life with those things, and that's fine I guess and equally OK if I decide not to for myself. I personally cannot work in an environment like most of corporate America anymore or even startups. I need people to be "real" with me, and to learn non-obvious things. I need to be constantly improving, not patted on the back and stabbed in the back by that same person. I want to be stabbed in the front. Of course I realize for many people that might be soul crushing and too much. The problem I think is that people are misinterpreting what is going on here. Using curse words at everyone for the sake of cursing or yelling for the sake of yelling is not the message. Nor is one true style of coding. To me, his message in part is "Be honest, be direct, be specific, and be clear." He has one clear direction for most of his projects and expects people to follow it or go home. IMO, this is what many software projects need - good, unwavering, solid leadership. It usually doesn't work with a pure democracy because no decisions, at least not the heard ones are made. I look at committees like the W3C and others and see how long it takes to produce output, how much fighting, etc. I look at github issues and see the long threads of people trying to fake politeness. No thanks. An ignorant tyrant isn't what is needed either. This is where it gets hard. If there was one style for all projects, we'd use it for all projects. Sometimes democracies maybe do work for small projects. Sometimes the real leader is not the person identified in charge. It takes some luck to have what Linus's projects have and the same leader who is good for one type of project is not good for another. I am 100% certain Linus would fail leading many projects. As for Linus WRT to the software pantheon, you'd be surprised by what I just wrote to note that I don't really care about him. I do not have heroes or believe in hero worship. Moreover, although I use and value Linux, I do not actually like it and I am somewhat unhappy it exists (but happy vs. Windows lets say). I simply use it because it is better for many of my use-cases than what is out there. That won't stop me from pointing out all the legacy warts and wondering if all this time, money, and effort would not have been better spent on a new OS with a new philosophy that did not carry over the ton of anachronisms and design mistakes from Unix and the surrounding community. I do not even consider most of what is in Linux that interesting or innovative, but I am still glad it exists and most of all can easily appreciate the pragmatism of bringing Unix to the home and affordable business world. Anyway, look at things for what they are and separate that from your personal beliefs, and it will help you learn even more.

johan_larson 10y ago

Has Linus written at length about how to write code well? Or do his notions of it have to be inferred from his actions and shorter commentary?

Noseshine 10y ago

You make claim after claim, and I think they do need substantiating evidence. After all, I find it highly unlikely that if he were even 10% as bad as you make it sound he would be the head of one of the most successful projects - especially since everybody working with him does so voluntarily. There would have been breaks long ago. The fact that the Linux kernel held together under the original author loudly speaks against assumptions of "bad interpersonal skills" on the side of Linus.

YCode 10y ago
Some food for thought: http://www.computerworld.com/article/3004387/it-management/how-bad-a-boss-is-linus-torvalds.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/3004387/it-management/h... "I’m not a nice person, and I don’t care about you. I care about the technology and the kernel — that’s what’s important to me."
- Noseshine 10y ago
  See what I already wrote. This is like marketing research - what do you believe, what people tell you or the data about what they actually do? Because the data say what I already wrote. So you might as well interpret this as "Linus is a very humble guy" and have better support from the data. Or, alternatively, you can believe that a really mean person who doesn't care about others and behaves badly still managed to hold the kernel developers together. Sure, a single or even a few discontent developers can't easily fork the kernel - but if there would really have been a problem even a tenth as large as claimed by some (and I've never seen any of them actually having had any personal contact with Linus) they would long ago have forked. See node.js/io.js, OpenOffice, and other prominent examples for what happens when developers are not satisfied with the project's leadership.
  - YCode 10y ago
    I don't understand what this has to do with refuting the original claim: > Ultimately I think Linus's contributions to Software are pantheon, but he should not be looked to for imitation or lessons. His lessons for success are detrimental to the vast majority of software engineers. You're not supplying any examples others can learn from or benefit from imitating, you're just asserting they must exist.
    - Noseshine 10y ago
      Uhm... this is again backwards. I'm not making any claims - I'm responding to others who do. And I did (still) provide evidence: The Linux kernel project itself. Instead of individual anecdotes or some carefully selected email or sentences taken out of context I point to the whole project as the final outcome measurement. See what I wrote?
majewsky 10y ago
I won't argue with your main point, but a fair share of kernel devs are probably not working there voluntarily, since they write kernel code for their employer.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  But this is backwards! You don't become a kernel developer by being assigned to the job by your employer. Instead, employers hire people who are kernel developers. Source: I myself contributed a teensy tiny bit to the network stack loooong ago (2.4 kernel), and I worked with real kernel developers when I worked at one of the major Linux companies and for them with large (mostly US) software companies.
- ptomato 10y ago
  I'd expect that most devs capable of writing reasonable Linux kernel code would not have difficulty finding employment somewhere else doing something else.

palunon 10y ago

Linus works directly with a small number of people. They are not bothered by his abrasive personality. The rest is free to work with another maintainer if they wish to... But yeah, don't try to mimic him on people skills. I don't think he ever said it was a good idea to do so...

optionalparens 10y ago

I get what you are saying and I agree somewhat, but there are also some lessons to be learned from Linus and things to consider. I especially agree that many lesser talented people use his behavior as a justification for their own. I disagree that at least some of his lessons or behavior is detrimental. A good realization in life that many of us have is, "Most people are wrong about most things most of the time." This feels sometimes like it applies by an order of magnitude to programming. I think Linus has a style that deals with this reality head-on and it certainly is not for everyone. One needs to perhaps not be exactly like Linus, but draw some insight from what he does. First, he is bluntly honest with people and there is virtue there. You can argue there is a polite way to be honest, yet sometimes I wonder if I have found it. For huge parts of my career I made my life harder or even self-sabotaged myself by being overly polite to people. I was always assuming (and often still do) that I am wrong and they are right. Further, I give people the benefit of the doubt, try to help them save face in front of others even when wrong, and hear them out before making judgements. It sounds solid and is many ways a healthy attitude for life in general as well as programming. The problem that arises is that people are people. It is true that people will take advantage of you. It is true sometimes if you give them an inch, they will take ten. It is true stupid people often get ahead. More often the answer is simply people don't get the message. You can sit and do a code review with someone, ask them politely to do something, send an email, have a lunch chat, whatever, and the message still does not get across with most programmers. You can say that is bad communication or "my fault," but actually I am speaking more about what I observe rather as a whole than my own personal experience. I have had the privilege of working with best friends for small parts of my career, and even then this was an issue. I can't imagine people with better textbook communication than we did, but maybe what we needed was more Linus-style communication. Sometimes the advice or knowledge is beyond colleagues, and they'll even say, "Yeah, oops, I know you said to do X, but I did Y, my bad." That doesn't help you in project and getting things done, especially if it means minimum someone spends time to fix mistakes they know they should have never made. If you are direct or even a bit abrasive, there is no ambiguity. I grew up in two different cultures side-by-side and traveled the world at various points, living abroad for periods too. Without providing too much PII, I will say that my experience with American culture is that it is very polite, understanding, apologetic (Canadians get this rep.), relatively open, and welcoming. People in American workplaces are on the one hand uptight, more wound up, extremely dishonest, very opportunistic, melodramatic, and a host of other negative traits. On the other hand, Americans are very precise, thoughtful, at least feign listening to you, clever, and methodical. Compare that to another culture that I'd describe as masters of improv, extremely practical, open, honest, and yet sloppy, self-centered, arrogant, overconfident, and disorganized. Neither culture is better than the other, and like Linus, his style just represents one view point of dealing with programmers that is not really better or worse than most others that work. I will say that in the second culture I mention, things get done faster for certain types of work. The openness aspect also really matches a part of what Linus does. People tell you exactly what they think of you. Sometimes it's really hurtful such as telling you that you look "fatter" one day vs. another. They don't think of it as malicious though because from their perspective, they think something is wrong and they are trying to help. By pointing out you look like you are gaining weight, you might be surprised to know what is really going on is they think you might be sick and want to take care of you. They think you might be eating bad and want to feed you better food. Sometimes, sure, they are just being dicks. One can think of what Linus says as just a philosophy that won't work for everyone. Someone telling you exactly what you did wrong and not trying to be diplomatic, cute, or passive aggressive about it ensures the message is clear. It helps you in that you may never make that mistake again. There is no ambiguity hopefully and you either do what he says or decide all of it is not worth your time. Playing games, working people with you do not like, pretending to be nice, and blindly following cultural idiosyncrasies are not things I personally enjoy. Some people need those layers of protection or to live a life with those things, and that's fine I guess and equally OK if I decide not to for myself. I personally cannot work in an environment like most of corporate America anymore or even startups. I need people to be "real" with me, and to learn non-obvious things. I need to be constantly improving, not patted on the back and stabbed in the back by that same person. I want to be stabbed in the front. Of course I realize for many people that might be soul crushing and too much. The problem I think is that people are misinterpreting what is going on here. Using curse words at everyone for the sake of cursing or yelling for the sake of yelling is not the message. Nor is one true style of coding. To me, his message in part is "Be honest, be direct, be specific, and be clear." He has one clear direction for most of his projects and expects people to follow it or go home. IMO, this is what many software projects need - good, unwavering, solid leadership. It usually doesn't work with a pure democracy because no decisions, at least not the heard ones are made. I look at committees like the W3C and others and see how long it takes to produce output, how much fighting, etc. I look at github issues and see the long threads of people trying to fake politeness. No thanks. An ignorant tyrant isn't what is needed either. This is where it gets hard. If there was one style for all projects, we'd use it for all projects. Sometimes democracies maybe do work for small projects. Sometimes the real leader is not the person identified in charge. It takes some luck to have what Linus's projects have and the same leader who is good for one type of project is not good for another. I am 100% certain Linus would fail leading many projects. As for Linus WRT to the software pantheon, you'd be surprised by what I just wrote to note that I don't really care about him. I do not have heroes or believe in hero worship. Moreover, although I use and value Linux, I do not actually like it and I am somewhat unhappy it exists (but happy vs. Windows lets say). I simply use it because it is better for many of my use-cases than what is out there. That won't stop me from pointing out all the legacy warts and wondering if all this time, money, and effort would not have been better spent on a new OS with a new philosophy that did not carry over the ton of anachronisms and design mistakes from Unix and the surrounding community. I do not even consider most of what is in Linux that interesting or innovative, but I am still glad it exists and most of all can easily appreciate the pragmatism of bringing Unix to the home and affordable business world. Anyway, look at things for what they are and separate that from your personal beliefs, and it will help you learn even more.