9 ms·

Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

51 points by hawski 10y ago

ireadfaces 10y ago
I feel very disturbed when I hear all this. I do my part, whenever I hear someone saying something degrading for woman, even as a joke, I object. Because i know, that even if it is said as a joke, if it is being said over and over, you tend to think that's the way it works. Many a times, things happened not just because someone did something, but because someone did not do what he should have done to stop something from happening. Do your part, if everyone will do their part to stop it, it will change a lot.
- wastedhours 10y ago
  The issue with that is of course not the joking - I'm firmly of the belief jokes can be made on any subject and shouldn't be taboo, so long as both parties (teller and listener) equally know it's a joke. Unfortunately, it's an issue when (whether due to intelligence, naivety or misaligned personalities) the fact something's a joke isn't shared, however I don't think objecting to something you interpret as a joke, and you know is being told as a joke, is the right course of action. But then, I need to check my own privilege to be fair.
docdeek 10y ago
"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  This is sadly not uncommon, it just was a fairly famous case because she had a lot of followers in the west. Honor killings are sadly the norm in many parts of the world, and are not even that rare anymore in the west at least as far as Europe goes.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    I don't think they ever was rare in the west, they just took on a different character. Anyone recall hearing on the news about a "family tragedy" where a family was found dead, apparently at the hands of the father killing his wife and children? While i am unsure if there is any real research done on those i suspect that said father has run into bad news of some kind, felt he can no longer perform his role as the man of the house, and decide to take everyone with him as he goes.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Well family killings yeah, but honor killings are a specific category since they are almost unilaterally target women who "dishonored" the family for expressing their agency. Not saying they are inherently worse than any other tragedy they are just well defined.
    - ConfuciusSay02 10y ago
      What you describe are not honor killings. In North America, statistically speaking, the mother is more likely to kill the children than the father.
- pjc50 10y ago
  And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even been properly prosecuted for it. "Patriarchy" is a word that often seems over-used, but only because violent words and attitudes have so often been the prelude for violent actions with state and social complicity. You can find plenty of cases in the west where women speak up and face death threats. Such as for suggesting that a woman's face appear on some bank notes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25641941 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25641941 The line between people sending death threats on twitter and the person who strangled his sister for posting selfies is very thin.
  - EdiX 10y ago
    And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. (...) The last one closed in 1996. That's 20 years ago.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      And 9/11 was fifteen years ago! Doesn't time fly?
      - EdiX 10y ago
        Yep, if 9/11 was the only example of islamic terrorism in the last twenty years I would definitely agree that worries about it are outdated.
  - saiya-jin 10y ago
    feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be +-over in the west, but a lot of work to be done elsewhere. i have an issue though with so called feminist women that don't care about gender equality, but they want just all the benefits for them, without other parts that naturally come with them (ie be always treated like a princess but as equal at the same time - come on, we're not schizophrenics, and so on - list could be endless). most of them don't care much about what is happening in truly oppressive places around the globe (yeah, it's horrible! can you name few cases? what???), they just found another way to yell at others and express life frustrations, and at this time most don't have balls to actually argue to not be labeled sexist and whatnot. you think I am talking about some imaginary caricatures - far from that, and those beings give feminism a very bad name and prohibit the whole movement to be taken seriously in some circles. too loud where it doesn't matter anymore, and too quiet where it should.
w_t_payne 10y ago
In this age of information, an excess of social conservatism is a systemic weakness for a culture; perhaps an existential weakness.
- tremon 10y ago
  this isn't (just) conservatism though: it is social repression; the conservatism just attempts to keep it that way.
- vlehto 10y ago
  How so? The social conservatives seem to be able to kill people. The only reason why they are so rare in west is lack of popularity. If they don't suffer from such unpopularity somewhere, then they seem to have all the cards in their hands.
- littletimmy 10y ago
  There is much evidence to suggest that exactly the opposite is true: an excess of social liberalism leads to the downfall of a culture. Social conservatism means stable families, strong men, and social cohesion, which translates into a stronger nation. Social liberalism, as it has now, degenerates into identity politics and political paralysis. As Aristotle put it, "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." The greatest time for the middle class in the United States, for example, was in the 50s, when society was much more conservative than it is now. (That's what the "Make America Great Again" is all about.) The 50s are the last decade that the conservative WASP aristocracy was in power. Every election since, groups like African Americans, women, and Jews have increased their power and brought about with them big government. How is that an improvement? Surely, you agree that big government is disastrous for the country? There's a book "Sex and Culture" by J.D. Unwin that actually argues (convincingly in my opinion) that a suppression of sexual energies (i.e. control of women) is a necessary (not sufficient) condition for a civilization to succeed. Check it out.
  - saalweachter 10y ago
    Ahh, yes, the 1950s, when millions of veterans went to college for free and obtained low-interest mortgages under the GI Bill, when the Interstate Highway System -- perhaps the largest, most costly, and most environmentally consequential public works program ever -- was begun, when half the world fell to Communism, when schools were forciably integrated and whites began to flee cities and urban centers for the implicitly segregated suburbs, when modern medicine developed the polio vaccine and the birth control pill, when half the US workforce was unionized, when the Kinsey Report and Playboy were first published... Wait, what were we talking about?
personjerry 10y ago
One thing I find ironic is that we talk about bringing feminism to non-westernized countries like Pakistan, when Japan, one of the favored trading partners of Western countries, is full of stigma against the educated and working woman because of their "traditional" cultural views. Where are the feminists and the media for this cause?
- pjc50 10y ago
  One of the things that feminists tend to be aware of is that feminism isn't something you airdrop onto a culture, it has to be changed from within. And the voice of foreigners is often small or even counterproductive. How would "Europeans bringing feminism to America" play out? I get the impression from the election culture war that it would go down badly. It's often more effective to focus on local issues where you actually have a vote. Plenty of those in the West.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    This is not limited to feminism in any way what so ever. Any change to a nation/culture/group/whatever has to come from within. And any pressure for change from outside may well just harden the status quo, as conservatives turn it into a fight against invaders.
newswriter9 10y ago
It's ironic. In the Middle East, they use "porn" of you as revenge. In America, the government uses porn you look at to shame you. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25118156 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25118156

51 points by hawski 10y ago

I feel very disturbed when I hear all this. I do my part, whenever I hear someone saying something degrading for woman, even as a joke, I object. Because i know, that even if it is said as a joke, if it is being said over and over, you tend to think that's the way it works. Many a times, things happened not just because someone did something, but because someone did not do what he should have done to stop something from happening. Do your part, if everyone will do their part to stop it, it will change a lot.

wastedhours 10y ago
The issue with that is of course not the joking - I'm firmly of the belief jokes can be made on any subject and shouldn't be taboo, so long as both parties (teller and listener) equally know it's a joke. Unfortunately, it's an issue when (whether due to intelligence, naivety or misaligned personalities) the fact something's a joke isn't shared, however I don't think objecting to something you interpret as a joke, and you know is being told as a joke, is the right course of action. But then, I need to check my own privilege to be fair.

docdeek 10y ago

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

dogma1138 10y ago
This is sadly not uncommon, it just was a fairly famous case because she had a lot of followers in the west. Honor killings are sadly the norm in many parts of the world, and are not even that rare anymore in the west at least as far as Europe goes.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  I don't think they ever was rare in the west, they just took on a different character. Anyone recall hearing on the news about a "family tragedy" where a family was found dead, apparently at the hands of the father killing his wife and children? While i am unsure if there is any real research done on those i suspect that said father has run into bad news of some kind, felt he can no longer perform his role as the man of the house, and decide to take everyone with him as he goes.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Well family killings yeah, but honor killings are a specific category since they are almost unilaterally target women who "dishonored" the family for expressing their agency. Not saying they are inherently worse than any other tragedy they are just well defined.
  - ConfuciusSay02 10y ago
    What you describe are not honor killings. In North America, statistically speaking, the mother is more likely to kill the children than the father.
pjc50 10y ago
And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even been properly prosecuted for it. "Patriarchy" is a word that often seems over-used, but only because violent words and attitudes have so often been the prelude for violent actions with state and social complicity. You can find plenty of cases in the west where women speak up and face death threats. Such as for suggesting that a woman's face appear on some bank notes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25641941 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25641941 The line between people sending death threats on twitter and the person who strangled his sister for posting selfies is very thin.
- EdiX 10y ago
  And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. (...) The last one closed in 1996. That's 20 years ago.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    And 9/11 was fifteen years ago! Doesn't time fly?
    - EdiX 10y ago
      Yep, if 9/11 was the only example of islamic terrorism in the last twenty years I would definitely agree that worries about it are outdated.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be +-over in the west, but a lot of work to be done elsewhere. i have an issue though with so called feminist women that don't care about gender equality, but they want just all the benefits for them, without other parts that naturally come with them (ie be always treated like a princess but as equal at the same time - come on, we're not schizophrenics, and so on - list could be endless). most of them don't care much about what is happening in truly oppressive places around the globe (yeah, it's horrible! can you name few cases? what???), they just found another way to yell at others and express life frustrations, and at this time most don't have balls to actually argue to not be labeled sexist and whatnot. you think I am talking about some imaginary caricatures - far from that, and those beings give feminism a very bad name and prohibit the whole movement to be taken seriously in some circles. too loud where it doesn't matter anymore, and too quiet where it should.

w_t_payne 10y ago

In this age of information, an excess of social conservatism is a systemic weakness for a culture; perhaps an existential weakness.

tremon 10y ago
this isn't (just) conservatism though: it is social repression; the conservatism just attempts to keep it that way.
vlehto 10y ago
How so? The social conservatives seem to be able to kill people. The only reason why they are so rare in west is lack of popularity. If they don't suffer from such unpopularity somewhere, then they seem to have all the cards in their hands.
littletimmy 10y ago
There is much evidence to suggest that exactly the opposite is true: an excess of social liberalism leads to the downfall of a culture. Social conservatism means stable families, strong men, and social cohesion, which translates into a stronger nation. Social liberalism, as it has now, degenerates into identity politics and political paralysis. As Aristotle put it, "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." The greatest time for the middle class in the United States, for example, was in the 50s, when society was much more conservative than it is now. (That's what the "Make America Great Again" is all about.) The 50s are the last decade that the conservative WASP aristocracy was in power. Every election since, groups like African Americans, women, and Jews have increased their power and brought about with them big government. How is that an improvement? Surely, you agree that big government is disastrous for the country? There's a book "Sex and Culture" by J.D. Unwin that actually argues (convincingly in my opinion) that a suppression of sexual energies (i.e. control of women) is a necessary (not sufficient) condition for a civilization to succeed. Check it out.
- saalweachter 10y ago
  Ahh, yes, the 1950s, when millions of veterans went to college for free and obtained low-interest mortgages under the GI Bill, when the Interstate Highway System -- perhaps the largest, most costly, and most environmentally consequential public works program ever -- was begun, when half the world fell to Communism, when schools were forciably integrated and whites began to flee cities and urban centers for the implicitly segregated suburbs, when modern medicine developed the polio vaccine and the birth control pill, when half the US workforce was unionized, when the Kinsey Report and Playboy were first published... Wait, what were we talking about?

personjerry 10y ago

One thing I find ironic is that we talk about bringing feminism to non-westernized countries like Pakistan, when Japan, one of the favored trading partners of Western countries, is full of stigma against the educated and working woman because of their "traditional" cultural views. Where are the feminists and the media for this cause?

pjc50 10y ago
One of the things that feminists tend to be aware of is that feminism isn't something you airdrop onto a culture, it has to be changed from within. And the voice of foreigners is often small or even counterproductive. How would "Europeans bringing feminism to America" play out? I get the impression from the election culture war that it would go down badly. It's often more effective to focus on local issues where you actually have a vote. Plenty of those in the West.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  This is not limited to feminism in any way what so ever. Any change to a nation/culture/group/whatever has to come from within. And any pressure for change from outside may well just harden the status quo, as conservatives turn it into a fight against invaders.

newswriter9 10y ago

It's ironic. In the Middle East, they use "porn" of you as revenge. In America, the government uses porn you look at to shame you. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25118156 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25118156