3 ms·

First class citizen? Have you seen how old most of the versions are of GNU utilities they ship? I'm sure it because of licensing, but then it's up to them to

First class citizen? Have you seen how old most of the versions are of GNU utilities they ship? I'm sure it because of licensing, but then it's up to them to either improve them or provide modern replacements.

st3v3r 10y ago
I can easily install newer versions of those if I so desire.
- binarycrusader 10y ago
  That isn't what the parent's claim was about though -- the claim was "first-class" citizen. I'm well aware of homebrew and the like having used it myself; I still think the current situation is now better on Windows than macOS, which is bizarre.
  - hellofunk 10y ago
    Except that so many platforms just don't work well under Windows, and if you use languages like OCaml with OPAM, or other incredible tools like Elixir or Erlang, you can expect hiccups. You can get them working, but you have to do more heavy lifting [0]. In some cases it took the maintainers of major packages years to get them working properly on Windows because of its strange environment compared to most of the rest of the industry, and these tools are often still unstable. Which is why so many developers who choose to use Windows usually have a duel boot or VM into Linux, which is an extra layer of inconvenience a lot of the time. I used to work on Windows only and had a VM, for 2 years this was my daily workflow. When I finally just switched to Mac, it was amazing how much more time I felt like I had during the day to spend on my real work, how fewer VM issues I had to deal with, and just enjoy working on the native OS. [0] https://elixirforum.com/t/current-state-of-elixir-on-windows/855/4 https://elixirforum.com/t/current-state-of-elixir-on-windows...
    - pcwalton 10y ago
      > Except that so many platforms just don't work well under Windows, and if you use languages like OCaml with OPAM, or other incredible tools like Elixir or Erlang, you can expect hiccups. Which is why we have WSL/Bash on Windows!
      - hellofunk 10y ago
        WSL is full of compatibility problems with lots of stuff, it cannot be compared to the underlying OSX system for ease of use.
        pcwalton 10y ago
        I disagree. I listed several issues with XNU's implementation of POSIX above. A large portion of the WSL complaints are around the lack of inotify. You know what other system doesn't have inotify either? Another example is ptrace(): on XNU, it doesn't work; you have to use Mach instead. On the other hand, Microsoft went to the effort of actually making ptrace() work properly. This has actual user-visible ramifications: gdb works great in WSL, while it works not-so-great in current versions of macOS. strace works fine in WSL, while on Darwin you have to use the heavily underdocumented dtruss. Syscalls are underdocumented in macOS, so Valgrind doesn't work well; it constantly breaks on OS updates. On the other hand, Valgrind works great on WSL as long as you compile from source. A lot of this is because Linux has a stable and documented syscall interface, unlike Darwin.
        hellofunk 10y ago
        Well, I don't use Windows any more so I cannot speak from personal experience on the matter. But in my free time I experiment heavily with new platforms and languages, and as I'm working through support forums, freenode, blogs, there is a tremendous amount of noise from fellow experimenters trying to get something going on Windows [0]. Perhaps the really smart folks out there don't have this problem, but for the average joe blow developer who just wants to have some fun exploring technology, it is very obvious that things just go a lot more smoothly when installing and compiling and running various platforms on OSX compared to Windows. There is rarely any difference between the OSX and Linux steps to get all setup, while the Windows steps are often a non-trivial obstacle for the average developer. And many environments carry disclaimers about known issues on Windows that can affect operation. Even WSL often needs to be patched just to support a platform that works fine on OSX. Or we hear, "you can do this better in the next version of WSL..." sigh, that's not what most people want to deal with. You are perhaps well above average and so these issues don't affect you. But that doesn't help everyone else who struggles in the Windows environment for things that prioritise Linux/OSX. [0] Heck, even one of the principal Clojurescript developers doesn't even support Windows, he just asks for patches from Windows users who managed to figure out how to get something working. That is not an isolated attitude.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    I cannot disagree with you enough. Last I saw, you cannot interact with the rest of the system from Windows bash. I can install Sublime Text on my Mac, and launch it from the terminal, for example. I can't do that with the Windows system.
    - pcwalton 10y ago
      > I can install Sublime Text on my Mac, and launch it from the terminal, for example. I can't do that with the Windows system. That's coming in the next version of Bash on Windows.

st3v3r 10y ago

I can easily install newer versions of those if I so desire.

binarycrusader 10y ago
That isn't what the parent's claim was about though -- the claim was "first-class" citizen. I'm well aware of homebrew and the like having used it myself; I still think the current situation is now better on Windows than macOS, which is bizarre.
- hellofunk 10y ago
  Except that so many platforms just don't work well under Windows, and if you use languages like OCaml with OPAM, or other incredible tools like Elixir or Erlang, you can expect hiccups. You can get them working, but you have to do more heavy lifting [0]. In some cases it took the maintainers of major packages years to get them working properly on Windows because of its strange environment compared to most of the rest of the industry, and these tools are often still unstable. Which is why so many developers who choose to use Windows usually have a duel boot or VM into Linux, which is an extra layer of inconvenience a lot of the time. I used to work on Windows only and had a VM, for 2 years this was my daily workflow. When I finally just switched to Mac, it was amazing how much more time I felt like I had during the day to spend on my real work, how fewer VM issues I had to deal with, and just enjoy working on the native OS. [0] https://elixirforum.com/t/current-state-of-elixir-on-windows/855/4 https://elixirforum.com/t/current-state-of-elixir-on-windows...
  - pcwalton 10y ago
    > Except that so many platforms just don't work well under Windows, and if you use languages like OCaml with OPAM, or other incredible tools like Elixir or Erlang, you can expect hiccups. Which is why we have WSL/Bash on Windows!
    - hellofunk 10y ago
      WSL is full of compatibility problems with lots of stuff, it cannot be compared to the underlying OSX system for ease of use.
      - pcwalton 10y ago
        I disagree. I listed several issues with XNU's implementation of POSIX above. A large portion of the WSL complaints are around the lack of inotify. You know what other system doesn't have inotify either? Another example is ptrace(): on XNU, it doesn't work; you have to use Mach instead. On the other hand, Microsoft went to the effort of actually making ptrace() work properly. This has actual user-visible ramifications: gdb works great in WSL, while it works not-so-great in current versions of macOS. strace works fine in WSL, while on Darwin you have to use the heavily underdocumented dtruss. Syscalls are underdocumented in macOS, so Valgrind doesn't work well; it constantly breaks on OS updates. On the other hand, Valgrind works great on WSL as long as you compile from source. A lot of this is because Linux has a stable and documented syscall interface, unlike Darwin.
        hellofunk 10y ago
        Well, I don't use Windows any more so I cannot speak from personal experience on the matter. But in my free time I experiment heavily with new platforms and languages, and as I'm working through support forums, freenode, blogs, there is a tremendous amount of noise from fellow experimenters trying to get something going on Windows [0]. Perhaps the really smart folks out there don't have this problem, but for the average joe blow developer who just wants to have some fun exploring technology, it is very obvious that things just go a lot more smoothly when installing and compiling and running various platforms on OSX compared to Windows. There is rarely any difference between the OSX and Linux steps to get all setup, while the Windows steps are often a non-trivial obstacle for the average developer. And many environments carry disclaimers about known issues on Windows that can affect operation. Even WSL often needs to be patched just to support a platform that works fine on OSX. Or we hear, "you can do this better in the next version of WSL..." sigh, that's not what most people want to deal with. You are perhaps well above average and so these issues don't affect you. But that doesn't help everyone else who struggles in the Windows environment for things that prioritise Linux/OSX. [0] Heck, even one of the principal Clojurescript developers doesn't even support Windows, he just asks for patches from Windows users who managed to figure out how to get something working. That is not an isolated attitude.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  I cannot disagree with you enough. Last I saw, you cannot interact with the rest of the system from Windows bash. I can install Sublime Text on my Mac, and launch it from the terminal, for example. I can't do that with the Windows system.
  - pcwalton 10y ago
    > I can install Sublime Text on my Mac, and launch it from the terminal, for example. I can't do that with the Windows system. That's coming in the next version of Bash on Windows.