6 ms·

Lenovo tried this in the 2nd generation of the carbon X1 and swiftly went back to the traditional F keys in gen 3. I had to use one of those for a short while,

by jvehent 10y ago

Lenovo tried this in the 2nd generation of the carbon X1 and swiftly went back to the traditional F keys in gen 3. I had to use one of those for a short while, it was highly unpleasant. http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1-carbon-2/ http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1-ca...

simlevesque 10y ago
Apple's motto is : do smart thing that others did but smarter.
- dashoffset 10y ago
  It's easier when you control the OS and the hardware.
  - dmlittle 10y ago
    But it's harder to control the OS and the hardware.
  - toyg 10y ago
    But it's much harder to write your own OS in 2016, there's a reason nobody else does it. Think about the "enhancing" crapware most vendors deploy on their Windows machines, then scale it up to the entire OS. Yeah, it would be that bad. We have to give it to Apple for still crafting their OS themselves like it was 1985, and doing a very good job at it.
    - dashoffset 10y ago
      Agreed. I was not criticising Apple, by the way.
  - redial 10y ago
    It only looks easier because all the hard work went into creating a desirable combination of os-hardware that they could control.
marricks 10y ago
To be fair, leaks have suggested this is more context aware while lenovo required you to tap through modes. This also has a finger print sensor for some added functionality. If they included haptic feedback (which is in their bag of tricks) it could even feel a bit better. As others have said, Apple's MO seems to be to only step in when an effective (and desirable) solution can be offered, and before that just stick with what works.
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  Lenovo's version was context-sensitive, at least on Windows as they shipped it; for instance, it would switch to media mode when you opened a media player. (You had to tap through modes on Linux.)
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    But would it also not require developers to build support into their programs for it? At least on that front, Apple would have a far easier time getting support and buy in from developers than a random Windows OEM.
DominikR 10y ago
I've been a long time user of IBM/Lenovo laptops and I have to say that their implementations of new features (especially when no one has done this before) is often _very_ lacking. I can only imagine what kind of horrible software they shipped with this thing to control it. With Apples implementation I at least expect the OS and software implementation to be easy to use even though I'm still not sold on the idea itself.
threeseed 10y ago
Different situation. Mac developers have always been pushed by Apple and consumers courtesy of the App Store e.g. reviews to adopt the latest OS features. And by and large they always have. It is adoption by developers that determines whether or not the feature is useful or not.
- skronch 10y ago
  Hopefully it will see more adoption than Force Touch on the Macbooks though.
  - xenobioticants 10y ago
    Was just about to say this. Whereas 3D Touch/Force Touch/Taptic (why does Apple have to use 3 names for the same thing...) is used a decent amount on the iPhone and Apple Watch, I've never really used Force Touch beyond quickly looking up what a word means on a Mac.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
shripadk 10y ago
I think that the Apple Macbook Pro Magic Toolbar is context aware unlike the Lenovo one where they just replaced tactile keys with equivalent touch based keys (mostly a gimmick with no real functional significance). Just my guess though. We'll know for sure only after the launch.
- DominikR 10y ago
  It's almost guaranteed that there will still be a graphical touch layout that is identical to the old one. If they removed that it would be absolutely crazy because most people who use MacBooks for productive work require the Function keys.
  - msbarnett 10y ago
    > If they removed that it would be absolutely crazy because most people who use MacBooks for productive work require the Function keys. Citation needed? I've been developing exclusively on MBPs since 2007ish and I barely ever use the F-row for anything other than volume and brightness adjustment. I agree, though, that the graphical touch layout is going to duplicate the current functionality of the F-row.
    - DominikR 10y ago
      I doubt there are studies about this, but I know you use it in XCode, Android Studio (IntelliJ), Eclipse and the Adobe Suit. That should be a significant enough user base to make the idea of completely removing the function key "crazy".
  - boardwaalk 10y ago
    Probably true, and I bet some third party will make a key outline adhesive strip so you can get at least a little physical feel if you want it. I wonder if it'll have haptic feedback.
xoa 10y ago
>ABC Corp tried feature XYZ before Apple and it didn't work so this feature is dumb While Apple is certainly far from infallible and has made blunders before (sometimes from neglect, once in a while from a fundamental blunder in their understanding of proper target market functionality), what you've written seems to come up like clockwork with nearly every change they make. "Oh, but someone else did the idea before!" I really don't understand why so many tech people in particularly seem to have difficulty grasping that ideas are usually of only marginal value, the real key value any given effort brings to the table is the implementation. There is a world of difference between a mediocre implementation of a decent idea and a stellar one, even if they're 100% the exact same concept. In fact sometimes a great implementation of a mediocre concept can even beat out a crappy one of an amazing concept. Even good intentions and hard work are not enough in software or hardware development. From a fundamentals perspective I'm honestly pretty surprised by the visceral instant rejection, without having seen anything about the actual implementation, by crowds at HN, Ars, etc. I don't really see how this is fundamentally much different from what I've already got in macOS with my MS Natural Ergo 4000 keyboard and the universal generic USB driver "ControllerMate", which allows me to arbitrarily alter key mappings (including full scripts) for any active application. I don't generally change the main layout of course, but I do have dozens of profiles changing the upper function and special keys to suit the program I'm in, which I find particularly valuable for jumping from GUI apps to Vim and other CLI programs with a different history of thinking about UI behind them. Apple trying to just making this more available for the average user in a more flashy way may or may not be helpful for a pro, but I also don't see how it would be particularly harmful. What's with all stuff about "no more escape" and the like, what difference does it make if you tap the corner to get escape? As long as inputs are there that show up on the USB HCI what's the issue? On the other hand having a good Touch ID implementation (presumably with the HSM included) available built-in could range from great to fantastic depending on how much custom use we're able to make of it. Apple's current non-AIO desktops (Mac Mini, Mac Pro) are utter junk and that's really depressing, but they've put more effort into their notebooks while maybe this MBP will disappoint too but I don't think the massive doom mongering in this or the other thread seems justified just yet.
- twblalock 10y ago
  > From a fundamentals perspective I'm honestly pretty surprised by the visceral instant rejection, without having seen anything about the actual implementation, by crowds at HN, Ars, etc. Every time anything changes, there is a rather predicable response of this kind. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when laptop manufacturers stopped making models with 4:3 screens, when smartphone manufacturers abandoned physical keyboards, when Apple abandoned any type of drive or connector port ever... It's always enjoyable to come back to such threads and read the dire predictions of the naysayers after a few years, i.e. the one where the naysayers predicted that Apple would be doomed because the iPhone 5 was too small, and the one where the naysayers predicted that Apple would be doomed because the iPhone 6 was too big.
coldtea 10y ago
>I had to use one of those for a short while, it was highly unpleasant. That's how it usually is with companies that "did X first". Usually Apple does it in the actually usable way.

by jvehent 10y ago

simlevesque 10y ago

Apple's motto is : do smart thing that others did but smarter.

dashoffset 10y ago
It's easier when you control the OS and the hardware.
- dmlittle 10y ago
  But it's harder to control the OS and the hardware.
- toyg 10y ago
  But it's much harder to write your own OS in 2016, there's a reason nobody else does it. Think about the "enhancing" crapware most vendors deploy on their Windows machines, then scale it up to the entire OS. Yeah, it would be that bad. We have to give it to Apple for still crafting their OS themselves like it was 1985, and doing a very good job at it.
  - dashoffset 10y ago
    Agreed. I was not criticising Apple, by the way.
- redial 10y ago
  It only looks easier because all the hard work went into creating a desirable combination of os-hardware that they could control.

marricks 10y ago

To be fair, leaks have suggested this is more context aware while lenovo required you to tap through modes. This also has a finger print sensor for some added functionality. If they included haptic feedback (which is in their bag of tricks) it could even feel a bit better. As others have said, Apple's MO seems to be to only step in when an effective (and desirable) solution can be offered, and before that just stick with what works.

JoshTriplett 10y ago
Lenovo's version was context-sensitive, at least on Windows as they shipped it; for instance, it would switch to media mode when you opened a media player. (You had to tap through modes on Linux.)
- st3v3r 10y ago
  But would it also not require developers to build support into their programs for it? At least on that front, Apple would have a far easier time getting support and buy in from developers than a random Windows OEM.

DominikR 10y ago

I've been a long time user of IBM/Lenovo laptops and I have to say that their implementations of new features (especially when no one has done this before) is often _very_ lacking. I can only imagine what kind of horrible software they shipped with this thing to control it. With Apples implementation I at least expect the OS and software implementation to be easy to use even though I'm still not sold on the idea itself.

threeseed 10y ago

Different situation. Mac developers have always been pushed by Apple and consumers courtesy of the App Store e.g. reviews to adopt the latest OS features. And by and large they always have. It is adoption by developers that determines whether or not the feature is useful or not.

skronch 10y ago
Hopefully it will see more adoption than Force Touch on the Macbooks though.
- xenobioticants 10y ago
  Was just about to say this. Whereas 3D Touch/Force Touch/Taptic (why does Apple have to use 3 names for the same thing...) is used a decent amount on the iPhone and Apple Watch, I've never really used Force Touch beyond quickly looking up what a word means on a Mac.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

shripadk 10y ago

I think that the Apple Macbook Pro Magic Toolbar is context aware unlike the Lenovo one where they just replaced tactile keys with equivalent touch based keys (mostly a gimmick with no real functional significance). Just my guess though. We'll know for sure only after the launch.

DominikR 10y ago
It's almost guaranteed that there will still be a graphical touch layout that is identical to the old one. If they removed that it would be absolutely crazy because most people who use MacBooks for productive work require the Function keys.
- msbarnett 10y ago
  > If they removed that it would be absolutely crazy because most people who use MacBooks for productive work require the Function keys. Citation needed? I've been developing exclusively on MBPs since 2007ish and I barely ever use the F-row for anything other than volume and brightness adjustment. I agree, though, that the graphical touch layout is going to duplicate the current functionality of the F-row.
  - DominikR 10y ago
    I doubt there are studies about this, but I know you use it in XCode, Android Studio (IntelliJ), Eclipse and the Adobe Suit. That should be a significant enough user base to make the idea of completely removing the function key "crazy".
- boardwaalk 10y ago
  Probably true, and I bet some third party will make a key outline adhesive strip so you can get at least a little physical feel if you want it. I wonder if it'll have haptic feedback.

xoa 10y ago

>ABC Corp tried feature XYZ before Apple and it didn't work so this feature is dumb While Apple is certainly far from infallible and has made blunders before (sometimes from neglect, once in a while from a fundamental blunder in their understanding of proper target market functionality), what you've written seems to come up like clockwork with nearly every change they make. "Oh, but someone else did the idea before!" I really don't understand why so many tech people in particularly seem to have difficulty grasping that ideas are usually of only marginal value, the real key value any given effort brings to the table is the implementation. There is a world of difference between a mediocre implementation of a decent idea and a stellar one, even if they're 100% the exact same concept. In fact sometimes a great implementation of a mediocre concept can even beat out a crappy one of an amazing concept. Even good intentions and hard work are not enough in software or hardware development. From a fundamentals perspective I'm honestly pretty surprised by the visceral instant rejection, without having seen anything about the actual implementation, by crowds at HN, Ars, etc. I don't really see how this is fundamentally much different from what I've already got in macOS with my MS Natural Ergo 4000 keyboard and the universal generic USB driver "ControllerMate", which allows me to arbitrarily alter key mappings (including full scripts) for any active application. I don't generally change the main layout of course, but I do have dozens of profiles changing the upper function and special keys to suit the program I'm in, which I find particularly valuable for jumping from GUI apps to Vim and other CLI programs with a different history of thinking about UI behind them. Apple trying to just making this more available for the average user in a more flashy way may or may not be helpful for a pro, but I also don't see how it would be particularly harmful. What's with all stuff about "no more escape" and the like, what difference does it make if you tap the corner to get escape? As long as inputs are there that show up on the USB HCI what's the issue? On the other hand having a good Touch ID implementation (presumably with the HSM included) available built-in could range from great to fantastic depending on how much custom use we're able to make of it. Apple's current non-AIO desktops (Mac Mini, Mac Pro) are utter junk and that's really depressing, but they've put more effort into their notebooks while maybe this MBP will disappoint too but I don't think the massive doom mongering in this or the other thread seems justified just yet.

twblalock 10y ago
> From a fundamentals perspective I'm honestly pretty surprised by the visceral instant rejection, without having seen anything about the actual implementation, by crowds at HN, Ars, etc. Every time anything changes, there is a rather predicable response of this kind. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when laptop manufacturers stopped making models with 4:3 screens, when smartphone manufacturers abandoned physical keyboards, when Apple abandoned any type of drive or connector port ever... It's always enjoyable to come back to such threads and read the dire predictions of the naysayers after a few years, i.e. the one where the naysayers predicted that Apple would be doomed because the iPhone 5 was too small, and the one where the naysayers predicted that Apple would be doomed because the iPhone 6 was too big.

coldtea 10y ago

>I had to use one of those for a short while, it was highly unpleasant. That's how it usually is with companies that "did X first". Usually Apple does it in the actually usable way.