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I'm not the guy you replied to but I would say living ethically is difficult under capitalism because capitalism is all about competition, which incentivizes ce

I'm not the guy you replied to but I would say living ethically is difficult under capitalism because capitalism is all about competition, which incentivizes certain unethical behaviors: keeping secrets (closed-source software), sabotaging others (patent trolls, lawsuits), and taking away freedom from your customers (vendor lock-in, not using open standards).

marcoperaza 10y ago
As opposed to life under communism? I have family that grew up under communism and they told me that everything is about stealing in that system. You get a job not because it pays more, but because it lets you steal more. You horde things that you're not allowed to. You steal steal steal, because no one can live well on the ration books. Unless you're part of the nomenklatura, in which case your official job is stealing.
- bertiewhykovich 10y ago
  I'm not defending the Soviet Union. I'm not even defending communism, nor proposing a concrete alternative to capitalism. But the fact that other systems have led to worse abuses absolutely does not absolve capitalism of its crimes -- even the least-bad criminal is still a criminal. (And it's not clear that capitalism is, in fact, the best of the bunch: it's bizarre that Silicon Valley, a culture that is so dedicated to pushing the boundaries of the possible that curing death is a completely pedestrian ambition, believes that /this/ economic system is the real global maximum.)
  - tomcam 10y ago
    If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that to be a capitalist is to be a criminal?
    - Jtsummers 10y ago
      There is, perhaps, some implementation of capitalism which is not exploitative of people. We haven't found it yet.
      - untoreh 10y ago
        capitalism trades work for capital in an infinite loop, as long as it is free to bargain as little work for as much capital it is exploitative. The only non exploitative capitalism is a non-liberal capitalism which limits the bargaining, but since greed and corruption go in tandem, whatever tries to govern capitalism, eventually becomes just another bargaining iteration for capitalism itself. therefore the only implementation of non exploitative capitalism is capitalism ruled by an incorruptible system, which is utopia, or maybe AI overlords.
- nzp 10y ago
  > I have family that grew up under communism and they told me ... I guess that settles it. P.S. Your family did not grow up “under communism” unless they grew up in Ukrainian Free Territory[1] or Catalan and Aragon countryside during the Spanish Civil War[2], which are the two only socio-economic entities in modern history to reasonably approximate communism. What your family grew up in is state socialist Bolshevik dictatorship. If you're going to get all worked up about ideological wars, you should at least learn what these words mean, instead of blindly reproduce vulgar, politically illiterate Cold War obfuscations. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Aragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Aragon
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Spare me the No True Scotsman fallacies. In the Communist Manifesto, Marx lays out the agenda: 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production...
    - nzp 10y ago
      That you think this is a no true Scotsman fallacy just shows you have no idea what you're talking about and are just blindly ideologically raging. It's not a NTS fallacy, it's a words-have-non-arbitrary-meaning non-fallacy. The agenda you quote is about “Socialism“, or even more precisely “dictatorship of the proletariat”, the transitional period Marxists envision to precede communism. I'm not going to argue about that, I think history has shown how horrible of an idea it is. Communism is by definition a stateless (do notice how many times the state is mentioned in that agenda), classless society of free associations of producers and consumers with distribution and consumption based on “from each according to their ability, to each according to their need“ principle. Further reading: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-wage-system http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-wa...
tomcam 10y ago
What system does not incentivize unethical behaviors? Any system can be subverted to one's own benefit. This does not necessarily reflect poorly on the system.

marcoperaza 10y ago

As opposed to life under communism? I have family that grew up under communism and they told me that everything is about stealing in that system. You get a job not because it pays more, but because it lets you steal more. You horde things that you're not allowed to. You steal steal steal, because no one can live well on the ration books. Unless you're part of the nomenklatura, in which case your official job is stealing.

bertiewhykovich 10y ago
I'm not defending the Soviet Union. I'm not even defending communism, nor proposing a concrete alternative to capitalism. But the fact that other systems have led to worse abuses absolutely does not absolve capitalism of its crimes -- even the least-bad criminal is still a criminal. (And it's not clear that capitalism is, in fact, the best of the bunch: it's bizarre that Silicon Valley, a culture that is so dedicated to pushing the boundaries of the possible that curing death is a completely pedestrian ambition, believes that /this/ economic system is the real global maximum.)
- tomcam 10y ago
  If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that to be a capitalist is to be a criminal?
  - Jtsummers 10y ago
    There is, perhaps, some implementation of capitalism which is not exploitative of people. We haven't found it yet.
    - untoreh 10y ago
      capitalism trades work for capital in an infinite loop, as long as it is free to bargain as little work for as much capital it is exploitative. The only non exploitative capitalism is a non-liberal capitalism which limits the bargaining, but since greed and corruption go in tandem, whatever tries to govern capitalism, eventually becomes just another bargaining iteration for capitalism itself. therefore the only implementation of non exploitative capitalism is capitalism ruled by an incorruptible system, which is utopia, or maybe AI overlords.
nzp 10y ago
> I have family that grew up under communism and they told me ... I guess that settles it. P.S. Your family did not grow up “under communism” unless they grew up in Ukrainian Free Territory[1] or Catalan and Aragon countryside during the Spanish Civil War[2], which are the two only socio-economic entities in modern history to reasonably approximate communism. What your family grew up in is state socialist Bolshevik dictatorship. If you're going to get all worked up about ideological wars, you should at least learn what these words mean, instead of blindly reproduce vulgar, politically illiterate Cold War obfuscations. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Aragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Aragon
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  Spare me the No True Scotsman fallacies. In the Communist Manifesto, Marx lays out the agenda: 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production...
  - nzp 10y ago
    That you think this is a no true Scotsman fallacy just shows you have no idea what you're talking about and are just blindly ideologically raging. It's not a NTS fallacy, it's a words-have-non-arbitrary-meaning non-fallacy. The agenda you quote is about “Socialism“, or even more precisely “dictatorship of the proletariat”, the transitional period Marxists envision to precede communism. I'm not going to argue about that, I think history has shown how horrible of an idea it is. Communism is by definition a stateless (do notice how many times the state is mentioned in that agenda), classless society of free associations of producers and consumers with distribution and consumption based on “from each according to their ability, to each according to their need“ principle. Further reading: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-wage-system http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-wa...

tomcam 10y ago

What system does not incentivize unethical behaviors? Any system can be subverted to one's own benefit. This does not necessarily reflect poorly on the system.