4 ms·

I feel that most discussions about whether somebody/something qualifies as an artist or art end up being pretty meaningless because people don't have a clear no

I feel that most discussions about whether somebody/something qualifies as an artist or art end up being pretty meaningless because people don't have a clear notion of what "artist" or "art" mean. Most notions of those terms seem to be based on a picture of exemplars or prototypes of those kinds of things, and most determinations of whether somebody/something is an artist/art seem to be based on intuitive similarity comparisons with those exemplars/prototypes. [EDIT: just thinking out loud, "art" seems commonly, though implicitly, seen as having defining characteristics of ineffability and high cultural status, so people's views about whether X is art often really come down to whether they think it seems sufficiently ineffable and of sufficient cultural status, though they wouldn't say that's the basis for their view]

smallnamespace 10y ago
> pretty meaningless because people don't have a clear notion of what "artist" or "art" mean Maybe meaningless purely in terms of getting to a concrete answer, but IMO collaboratively grappling with and exploring our intuitive ideas is useful, especially when people have different starting perspectives. E.g. this entire thread. The world is not math, we can't always build our definitions from axioms. Sometimes analogical reasoning is the most accessible way to explore a concept.
- jamesrcole 10y ago
  > but IMO collaboratively grappling with and exploring our intuitive ideas is useful I fully agree. I'd like to see more discussion about what those terms mean when "is X art/an-artist" questions come up. I do think, though, that the meaning of those terms is often not discussed -- or perhaps, not honestly discussed, in a way that isn't simply serving people's prior judgement on the question -- at the times those questions come up.
- rapind 10y ago
  I suspect the world (universe) IS math. We just aren't smart enough to figure it all out. Your point still stands of course.
SapphireSun 10y ago
I wrote a blog a while back where I tried to figure out what a core part of art was to see if AIs would need it: https://medium.com/@willsilversmith/will-ai-need-art-91b56191a2a4#.erkau7o4q https://medium.com/@willsilversmith/will-ai-need-art-91b5619... While it doesn't cover all of art in a philosophy of art sense, it covers what I think most people think of when they think of art. Maybe you'll find it helpful (or better yet maybe you'll teach me a lesson).
- jamesrcole 10y ago
  Hi, I just read your essay. I thought it was well thought out > Arts are an ever evolving set of methods for communicating feeling from one person to another. [...] There are other ways you might use art, but this aspect of it is the most different from the other end of the spectrum like business or scientific writing where you shape ideas. IMO, if things like novels and poems are considered art then it can be communicating truths, but truths that are difficult to communicate in explicit, theoretical terms. > By manipulating their feelings, the artist is in essence influencing the viewer’s conception of their motivations. This bit wasn't entirely clear to me and I thought it could be fleshed out a bit more. > Perhaps the true use of art is to allow ourselves to explore different states of being and make better decisions. It might fit under that but, as I said above, I think it can be used as a means to communicate truths. Eg to broaden someone's perspective on the world
  - SapphireSun 10y ago
    Firstly, thank you for the feedback. :) > IMO, if things like novels and poems are considered art then it can be communicating truths, but truths that are difficult to communicate in explicit, theoretical terms. You're absolutely right. I think that things like novels and poems are located a little farther towards the center on the spectrum I mentioned than something that purely communicates feeling (like an abstract painting). I think the reason they are so successful is that they deliver one or more logically digestible messages along with a feeling. It often seems that people aren't convinced by logic, but rather by a shift in how they feel about something. > This bit wasn't entirely clear to me and I thought it could be fleshed out a bit more. Again, you're absolutely right. I felt that way too but I ran out of steam at the time. I think I have the energy to expand on it now. :) What I was trying to say was that your motivations shift based on how you feel, and the more powerful the feeling, the potentially larger the shift. Something is out of balance if you're feeling something very strongly. You'll be motivated to correct that imbalance, and in the process consider a different course of action. I talked to a friend that had taken a course on AI and minds at MIT and he said he considered emotions a filter on decision space. > It might fit under that but, as I said above, I think it can be used as a means to communicate truths. Eg to broaden someone's perspective on the world I haven't quite figured out what a truth is yet. It's definitely a kind of message that emotionally resonates. I sort of sense that the framework I proposed could be worked to encompass them, but I haven't done enough thinking on it yet. In this article I was focusing very narrowly on the extreme case of pure feeling to distill important truths about it, but the middle ground is where most of the important stuff happens. Simple models are good for investigating complex phenomenal since you can see exactly how they work and break down. I'd be happy to hear your ideas!

smallnamespace 10y ago

> pretty meaningless because people don't have a clear notion of what "artist" or "art" mean Maybe meaningless purely in terms of getting to a concrete answer, but IMO collaboratively grappling with and exploring our intuitive ideas is useful, especially when people have different starting perspectives. E.g. this entire thread. The world is not math, we can't always build our definitions from axioms. Sometimes analogical reasoning is the most accessible way to explore a concept.

jamesrcole 10y ago
> but IMO collaboratively grappling with and exploring our intuitive ideas is useful I fully agree. I'd like to see more discussion about what those terms mean when "is X art/an-artist" questions come up. I do think, though, that the meaning of those terms is often not discussed -- or perhaps, not honestly discussed, in a way that isn't simply serving people's prior judgement on the question -- at the times those questions come up.
rapind 10y ago
I suspect the world (universe) IS math. We just aren't smart enough to figure it all out. Your point still stands of course.

SapphireSun 10y ago

I wrote a blog a while back where I tried to figure out what a core part of art was to see if AIs would need it: https://medium.com/@willsilversmith/will-ai-need-art-91b56191a2a4#.erkau7o4q https://medium.com/@willsilversmith/will-ai-need-art-91b5619... While it doesn't cover all of art in a philosophy of art sense, it covers what I think most people think of when they think of art. Maybe you'll find it helpful (or better yet maybe you'll teach me a lesson).

jamesrcole 10y ago
Hi, I just read your essay. I thought it was well thought out > Arts are an ever evolving set of methods for communicating feeling from one person to another. [...] There are other ways you might use art, but this aspect of it is the most different from the other end of the spectrum like business or scientific writing where you shape ideas. IMO, if things like novels and poems are considered art then it can be communicating truths, but truths that are difficult to communicate in explicit, theoretical terms. > By manipulating their feelings, the artist is in essence influencing the viewer’s conception of their motivations. This bit wasn't entirely clear to me and I thought it could be fleshed out a bit more. > Perhaps the true use of art is to allow ourselves to explore different states of being and make better decisions. It might fit under that but, as I said above, I think it can be used as a means to communicate truths. Eg to broaden someone's perspective on the world
- SapphireSun 10y ago
  Firstly, thank you for the feedback. :) > IMO, if things like novels and poems are considered art then it can be communicating truths, but truths that are difficult to communicate in explicit, theoretical terms. You're absolutely right. I think that things like novels and poems are located a little farther towards the center on the spectrum I mentioned than something that purely communicates feeling (like an abstract painting). I think the reason they are so successful is that they deliver one or more logically digestible messages along with a feeling. It often seems that people aren't convinced by logic, but rather by a shift in how they feel about something. > This bit wasn't entirely clear to me and I thought it could be fleshed out a bit more. Again, you're absolutely right. I felt that way too but I ran out of steam at the time. I think I have the energy to expand on it now. :) What I was trying to say was that your motivations shift based on how you feel, and the more powerful the feeling, the potentially larger the shift. Something is out of balance if you're feeling something very strongly. You'll be motivated to correct that imbalance, and in the process consider a different course of action. I talked to a friend that had taken a course on AI and minds at MIT and he said he considered emotions a filter on decision space. > It might fit under that but, as I said above, I think it can be used as a means to communicate truths. Eg to broaden someone's perspective on the world I haven't quite figured out what a truth is yet. It's definitely a kind of message that emotionally resonates. I sort of sense that the framework I proposed could be worked to encompass them, but I haven't done enough thinking on it yet. In this article I was focusing very narrowly on the extreme case of pure feeling to distill important truths about it, but the middle ground is where most of the important stuff happens. Simple models are good for investigating complex phenomenal since you can see exactly how they work and break down. I'd be happy to hear your ideas!