15 ms·

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would f

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times salary. I mentioned this role and said I would get him a chat with the hiring manager. They seemed interested. I said you can double your salary. At this point they got cold feet and said 'it sounds too important for me'. I told them I knew the job, that it would suit them and I wouldn't burn my own credibility if I want confident they would succeed. But they money spooked them. And while this was a sample of one it really opened my eyes to sense of entitlement that comes with growing up in a wealthy vs poor enviroment. And simply the expectations you approach life with, having a overriding effect on natural ability. There are so many variable in play for this its not a one issue answer but I suspect this one is more important than we typically give it credit for. An expectation on oneself of where we should end up based on how we grow up.

malandrew 10y ago
I've seen this referred to as a "growth mindset".
gxs 10y ago
I was just getting ready to make a reply along the lines of who cares what outcomes for rich kids are as long as there is opportunity for non rich kids. That is to say, who cares if little Richie Ritch will succeed 100% of the time because of his wealth, as long as your average poor can succeed provided they put in the work (i.e., isn't denied opportunity). Your comment took a way different direction than I was expecting and genuinely made me reflect. You see, I grew up extremely poor (yes, those "hoods" you hear about), and figure it's possible to make it out. But, I do do what you mentioned above A LOT. To the point that some times I feel guilty expensing my cell phone even though it's a perk.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  I grew up privileged -- and in most decades, fairly rich. But I definately feel guilty about expensing things. I think that's just because my personality is pretty diffident. Though, as I started earning money myself and not living off my family, I became more open to enjoying the perks that are offered me.
mark-ruwt 10y ago
For anyone interested in digging into this concept, read up on "Impostor Syndrome". https://counseling.caltech.edu/general/InfoandResources/Impostor https://counseling.caltech.edu/general/InfoandResources/Impo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
- georgemcbay 10y ago
  There may be some interplay with Impostor Syndrome, but IMO what is being discussed here is a different thing, for which there may be a more specific name... but if so I'm unaware of it. Impostor syndrome is pretty much universal (insomuch as it crosses class/economy boundaries) whereas what has been mentioned here is a sort of anti-entitlement very specific to people who grew up poor. People in this situation are often afraid to ask for what they are worth (to the point where they will sabotage their careers to some degree as noted in Gustomaximus post), are generally afraid of authority even when there is no reason to be or the authority isn't actually an authority over them, etc. I've definitely seen and experienced this phenomenon myself speaking as someone who grew up fairly poor -- single-mom American poor (which, as all things are relative, is quite different than seriously-might-starve poor... at least for now).
  - ricksplat 10y ago
    It sounds a little like learned helplessness ... having spent some time in the UK I have noticed this unquestioning deference to "ones betters" and I wonder how it comes about. How is this trait acquired?
    - alsetmusic 10y ago
      I got it from my father, who rose from poor to wealthy through education. He taught me that education was all that mattered. When I achieved a prestigious Silicon Valley position after dropping out of college, I considered myself a fake who would be discovered at any moment for a long time. All my colleagues had compsci degrees. Thing is, I eventually discovered that I could hold my own. What my father taught me is only one way to achieve success, as I later realized. But that he taught it as dogma crippled me for a long time.
rhgraysonii 10y ago
This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering job I made almost 3x what my mother ever made in a year over her entire life's highest salary. I was a college dropout that was enthusiastic and knew enough to be functional. It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month. Edit: The first thing I did after collecting my first 'engineering paycheck' was go out to Applebees and get an appetizer, a drink, AND an entree, and then proceed to not worry about it.
- Swizec 10y ago
  > It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month. This. I come from a background where ordering pizza was a special event. We weren't poor poor, but we had to be careful. I'm getting more used to eating out and getting takeout, but I still read the menu right-to-left (prices first) even though 99% of the time it really doesn't matter. Maybe someday I'll stop feeling guilty for not ordering the cheapest thing on the menu. Took me 2 years to get used to appetizers.
  - 13of40 10y ago
    It's a weird feeling to walk out of a store with a bag full of stuff and realize you have no idea how much any of it cost. Whenever that happens I think of that minor scandal when the nation found out the Clintons(?) didn't know the price of a gallon of milk.
    - vidarh 10y ago
      I see not having to know prices as one of the best perks of being decently well off. I've had to count every penny when I was younger, and look for cheaper alternatives, and defer purchases, and it made money one of the big stressful things in my life. Eventually arning enough that I could stop thinking about it other than checking my balance now and again was far more liberating than any of the subsequent improvements in my finances.
megablast 10y ago
I have seen this before. Some people will only take a job if they KNOW how to do the job. Others will take a job, and are confident they can learn it along the way. It might have more to do with that confidence than being poor.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  If you don't have a safety net you'll quickly become risk averse.
  - vacri 10y ago
    One distinction that I like to make is that in my own life, I've definitely been poor, but I've never been in poverty. I've been a student and I've been unemployed almost without money to even get food occasionally, but I've always been in a position where I could ask my (middle-class) mother for a bit of cash to tide me over (or even move back 'home' for a while. I have never had to ask, but that option/safety net has always been there. That, to me, is the difference between merely being poor (a transient state) and living in poverty (no simple escape route). Hell, even simply knowing that you can escape poverty is an advantage that some people don't have.
    - Retra 10y ago
      I grew up poor, and after my first bout of college, I only had $400 to my name, nowhere to go, no job, and 28 days until rent was due. I spent that month freezing in an empty apartment eating potatoes with soy sauce on them. And then may landlord wants to play "this is a stupid college kid" and starts claiming that I must keep paying rent until I can find a new lessee (which I didn't.) Nevermind that I always payed my rent 3 months in advance. These kinds of experiences really color your perspective on wealth. There's no reason for some well-off, undereducated, underworked adult to literally threaten the survival of another person simply because they're too lazy to do their own job for a business they owned.
      - Shanea93 10y ago
TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
>And while this was a sample of one it really opened my eyes to sense of entitlement that comes with growing up in a wealthy vs poor enviroment. In the UK, the primary selling points of the Public School system (i.e. private schools priced far out of the reach of most of the population) are three things - social confidence, entitlement and a sense of superiority, and networking. Conversely, the primary products of the state educational system are low confidence, low expectations, and exclusion from social capital. It's a perfectly rigid and self-sustaining caste system. Of course a few individuals break out of it, but the social and economic effect is deadening. Although wealth and opportunity aren't fairly distributed, there's a more subtly destructive effect on the rich. I've known people who grew up with huge privilege, and some of them have been very successful, because all that education and opportunity allowed them to explore and develop their talents. But I've known others who have been crushed by their backgrounds. They can appear successful outwardly, but in fact they've never developed an independent sense of themselves outside of their families and their wealth. This usually happens in families that are externally wealthy but emotionally austere or even neglectful. It's a particularly toxic combination socially because these people can end up having wealth, influence, and power, but their emotions and humanity are stunted and crippled. Wealth inequalities can cover up these deeper issues of neglect and sometimes outright abuse. And if these people become politically influential, they tend to repeat their abuse on a much wider and more destructive scale.
- patmcguire 10y ago
  There's also a lot of complicated signaling that says I Am Elite Like You. Hard to pick up on or transmit out if you're not in on it, and I don't think people in it are doing it consciously.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    In the UK, accent is a major component.
    - kagamine 10y ago
      I'm from a region of the UK that when people, especially abroad, hear me speak they ask why I don't sound as expected. They have been to where I am from or met other people from there and think I sound "posh". I'm not posh at all but grew up in the middle of nowhere and that's just the accent people there have. Posh is my friend Graham who pronounces his name as "grah-am". Graham's annual school fees where half the annual wage of the shop manager where I worked as a student.

malandrew 10y ago

I've seen this referred to as a "growth mindset".

gxs 10y ago

I was just getting ready to make a reply along the lines of who cares what outcomes for rich kids are as long as there is opportunity for non rich kids. That is to say, who cares if little Richie Ritch will succeed 100% of the time because of his wealth, as long as your average poor can succeed provided they put in the work (i.e., isn't denied opportunity). Your comment took a way different direction than I was expecting and genuinely made me reflect. You see, I grew up extremely poor (yes, those "hoods" you hear about), and figure it's possible to make it out. But, I do do what you mentioned above A LOT. To the point that some times I feel guilty expensing my cell phone even though it's a perk.

adrianratnapala 10y ago
I grew up privileged -- and in most decades, fairly rich. But I definately feel guilty about expensing things. I think that's just because my personality is pretty diffident. Though, as I started earning money myself and not living off my family, I became more open to enjoying the perks that are offered me.

mark-ruwt 10y ago

For anyone interested in digging into this concept, read up on "Impostor Syndrome". https://counseling.caltech.edu/general/InfoandResources/Impostor https://counseling.caltech.edu/general/InfoandResources/Impo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

georgemcbay 10y ago
There may be some interplay with Impostor Syndrome, but IMO what is being discussed here is a different thing, for which there may be a more specific name... but if so I'm unaware of it. Impostor syndrome is pretty much universal (insomuch as it crosses class/economy boundaries) whereas what has been mentioned here is a sort of anti-entitlement very specific to people who grew up poor. People in this situation are often afraid to ask for what they are worth (to the point where they will sabotage their careers to some degree as noted in Gustomaximus post), are generally afraid of authority even when there is no reason to be or the authority isn't actually an authority over them, etc. I've definitely seen and experienced this phenomenon myself speaking as someone who grew up fairly poor -- single-mom American poor (which, as all things are relative, is quite different than seriously-might-starve poor... at least for now).
- ricksplat 10y ago
  It sounds a little like learned helplessness ... having spent some time in the UK I have noticed this unquestioning deference to "ones betters" and I wonder how it comes about. How is this trait acquired?
  - alsetmusic 10y ago
    I got it from my father, who rose from poor to wealthy through education. He taught me that education was all that mattered. When I achieved a prestigious Silicon Valley position after dropping out of college, I considered myself a fake who would be discovered at any moment for a long time. All my colleagues had compsci degrees. Thing is, I eventually discovered that I could hold my own. What my father taught me is only one way to achieve success, as I later realized. But that he taught it as dogma crippled me for a long time.

rhgraysonii 10y ago

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering job I made almost 3x what my mother ever made in a year over her entire life's highest salary. I was a college dropout that was enthusiastic and knew enough to be functional. It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month. Edit: The first thing I did after collecting my first 'engineering paycheck' was go out to Applebees and get an appetizer, a drink, AND an entree, and then proceed to not worry about it.

Swizec 10y ago
> It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month. This. I come from a background where ordering pizza was a special event. We weren't poor poor, but we had to be careful. I'm getting more used to eating out and getting takeout, but I still read the menu right-to-left (prices first) even though 99% of the time it really doesn't matter. Maybe someday I'll stop feeling guilty for not ordering the cheapest thing on the menu. Took me 2 years to get used to appetizers.
- 13of40 10y ago
  It's a weird feeling to walk out of a store with a bag full of stuff and realize you have no idea how much any of it cost. Whenever that happens I think of that minor scandal when the nation found out the Clintons(?) didn't know the price of a gallon of milk.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    I see not having to know prices as one of the best perks of being decently well off. I've had to count every penny when I was younger, and look for cheaper alternatives, and defer purchases, and it made money one of the big stressful things in my life. Eventually arning enough that I could stop thinking about it other than checking my balance now and again was far more liberating than any of the subsequent improvements in my finances.

megablast 10y ago

I have seen this before. Some people will only take a job if they KNOW how to do the job. Others will take a job, and are confident they can learn it along the way. It might have more to do with that confidence than being poor.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago
If you don't have a safety net you'll quickly become risk averse.
- vacri 10y ago
  One distinction that I like to make is that in my own life, I've definitely been poor, but I've never been in poverty. I've been a student and I've been unemployed almost without money to even get food occasionally, but I've always been in a position where I could ask my (middle-class) mother for a bit of cash to tide me over (or even move back 'home' for a while. I have never had to ask, but that option/safety net has always been there. That, to me, is the difference between merely being poor (a transient state) and living in poverty (no simple escape route). Hell, even simply knowing that you can escape poverty is an advantage that some people don't have.
  - Retra 10y ago
    I grew up poor, and after my first bout of college, I only had $400 to my name, nowhere to go, no job, and 28 days until rent was due. I spent that month freezing in an empty apartment eating potatoes with soy sauce on them. And then may landlord wants to play "this is a stupid college kid" and starts claiming that I must keep paying rent until I can find a new lessee (which I didn't.) Nevermind that I always payed my rent 3 months in advance. These kinds of experiences really color your perspective on wealth. There's no reason for some well-off, undereducated, underworked adult to literally threaten the survival of another person simply because they're too lazy to do their own job for a business they owned.
    - Shanea93 10y ago

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago

>And while this was a sample of one it really opened my eyes to sense of entitlement that comes with growing up in a wealthy vs poor enviroment. In the UK, the primary selling points of the Public School system (i.e. private schools priced far out of the reach of most of the population) are three things - social confidence, entitlement and a sense of superiority, and networking. Conversely, the primary products of the state educational system are low confidence, low expectations, and exclusion from social capital. It's a perfectly rigid and self-sustaining caste system. Of course a few individuals break out of it, but the social and economic effect is deadening. Although wealth and opportunity aren't fairly distributed, there's a more subtly destructive effect on the rich. I've known people who grew up with huge privilege, and some of them have been very successful, because all that education and opportunity allowed them to explore and develop their talents. But I've known others who have been crushed by their backgrounds. They can appear successful outwardly, but in fact they've never developed an independent sense of themselves outside of their families and their wealth. This usually happens in families that are externally wealthy but emotionally austere or even neglectful. It's a particularly toxic combination socially because these people can end up having wealth, influence, and power, but their emotions and humanity are stunted and crippled. Wealth inequalities can cover up these deeper issues of neglect and sometimes outright abuse. And if these people become politically influential, they tend to repeat their abuse on a much wider and more destructive scale.

patmcguire 10y ago
There's also a lot of complicated signaling that says I Am Elite Like You. Hard to pick up on or transmit out if you're not in on it, and I don't think people in it are doing it consciously.
- mirimir 10y ago
  In the UK, accent is a major component.
  - kagamine 10y ago
    I'm from a region of the UK that when people, especially abroad, hear me speak they ask why I don't sound as expected. They have been to where I am from or met other people from there and think I sound "posh". I'm not posh at all but grew up in the middle of nowhere and that's just the accent people there have. Posh is my friend Graham who pronounces his name as "grah-am". Graham's annual school fees where half the annual wage of the shop manager where I worked as a student.