4 ms·

My First Virtual Reality Groping

13 points by xwvvvvwx 10y ago

NormenKD 10y ago
Please, give it a read. Society gets ready for VR, but somehow still isn't ready for interacting Women.
gozur88 10y ago
That's not sexual assault.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  No, it's not and IMHO the overuse of the term is a detriment to those who have actually been sexually assaulted. Words have meaning.
- Mz 10y ago
  sex·u·al as·sault: 1.an incident that involves sexual contact that is forced on somebody No, it isn't the same thing as rape. I wish we had a different term. But dismissing this as "not sexual assault" is not a great place for this discussion to start, for a number of reasons.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    Redefining well understood terms is also not a great place for the discussion to start.
    - Mz 10y ago
      I actually looked the term up online and copied and pasted it here because I generally agree with you that this is not a great use of the term (see my own previous blog post where I bitch about something similar: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-woman-rants-about-man-bashy-stuff.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-woman-rant...). But, really, as someone who is very openly female on this forum, I am finding the discussion here kind of threatening and dismissive. The comments here create an impression that many men kind of think "Eh, no big deal feeling a woman up virtually. It isn't like it's REALLY sexual assault." And I have been downvoted and your remark here has apparently been upvoted, which implies a general attitude of the overarching crowd, not just an isolated opinion being expressed. It is no wonder so many women are afraid of not only participation in VR, but even openly participating in many male dominated internet spaces.
      - x1798DE 10y ago
        > The comments here create an impression that many men kind of think "Eh, no big deal feeling a woman up virtually. It isn't like it's REALLY sexual assault." I don't think anyone has at all insinuated that this would be acceptable behaviour, people are just reacting to the editorialized headline claiming this is sexual assault, which is a term generally used for more serious offenses. In the same way that people would almost certainly react the same way if you claimed that you were assaulted when someone knocked the books out of your hands. Technically true and no one is on the other guy's side, but (in that situation), you'd be being melodramatic. I think it goes without saying that this sort of behavior is rude and annoying, but honestly it's not any different than other rude and annoying behaviour engaged in by immature people, whether they are tea bagging your avatar or calling you a faggot on the chat.
        Mz 10y ago
        No, it doesn't go without saying and thank you for saying it because every single reply to me has been essentially dismissive. This is what a lot of women mean when they talk about rape culture. And I find it enormously frustrating that no one here seems to see why a woman would feel that a group of presumably all men responding in a consistently dismissive fashion would create a threatening atmosphere that has the potential to encourage bad behavior towards women of the sort described in the article.
  - leesalminen 10y ago
    No contact[0] ever occurred. These are pixels on a screen. [0] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/contact http://www.dictionary.com/browse/contact Contact the act or state of touching; a touching or meeting, as of two things or people.
    - Mz 10y ago
      Remember that little digression I told you about how the hundred-foot drop looked so convincing? Yeah. Guess what. The virtual groping feels just as real. Of course, you're not physically being touched, just like you're not actually one hundred feet off the ground, but it's still scary as hell.
      - leesalminen 10y ago
        While unwanted virtual contact may be scary to some, it is not "contact" as defined by language and does not constitute sexual assault.
        Mz 10y ago
        First, contact can mean communication with someone. Second, the internet has moderators all over it because merely saying ugly things to or about people can potentially cause real world harm. The article admits that no actual physical contact occurred. I agree the term sexual assault is problematic. But it is the norm for there to not be a ready made term for completely new, previously unavailable experiences. Anyway, I am planning on stepping away from this discussion. I find it galling that it is being limited to simply dismissing what happened to her as if her fear and upset don't really count because "it was just pixels on a screen."
        bitwize 10y ago
        IANAL but assault consists of harmful or offensive contact, or the threat of same. Under this definition: * psychological harm counts as harm * an activity which has the same psychological effect as contact may be defined as contact under law, especially when VR starts to incorporate haptic feedback * the law may still allow prosecution under the rubric that "virtual groping" constitutes a threat, as it certainly feels threatening * many women's rights groups consider the use of certain language or communication to be "violence against women"; and some jurisdictions may prosecute it as such The answer is it's not clear. The courts will eventually decide the issue.
steauengeglase 10y ago
Time to patch in a pan-dimensional baka-hammer.
kinkdr 10y ago
There is no denial that the author had an unpleasant experience, but it is nowhere close to what a real-life sexual assault feels like. If I was the author I would choose different words to describe the experience out of respect of people who have been sexually assaulted in real life.
- hyperjeff 10y ago
  Of course, the author would agree that it's not close to real-life assault. If I said, "I shot a bear in virtual reality," it would be missing the point to complain that it's nowhere close to real-life bear shooting. No one said it was real-life, quite the contrary. The story does bring up a central trouble spot in multiplayer gaming: no mechanisms in place for holding players responsible for being an asshat.
blackflame7000 10y ago
If this qualifies as sexual assault then I have been murdered about 40,000 times between halo and cod. Articles like this do a disservice to actual victims of heinous acts.
x1798DE 10y ago
Nowhere in this article does the author say she was sexually assaulted, and if this was the original headline it has since been changed to the original medium post's headline: "My First Virtual Reality Groping" This is, by the way, a repost of the medium post that was previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12777340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12777340 I think this version adds nothing to the original version, which has identical text.
raarts 10y ago
Being treated as a actual object is something every woman has to deal with. In the real world there are laws and social norms, but in VR apparently nobody steps up if they see it happening. I can see this being a very unpleasant experience, and if behaviour like this becomes normal/acceptable in VR I can imagine it takes the fun out of it. Also, groping in real life does not do the body any physical damage too. But it's still outlawed.

13 points by xwvvvvwx 10y ago

NormenKD 10y ago

Please, give it a read. Society gets ready for VR, but somehow still isn't ready for interacting Women.

gozur88 10y ago

That's not sexual assault.

leesalminen 10y ago
No, it's not and IMHO the overuse of the term is a detriment to those who have actually been sexually assaulted. Words have meaning.
Mz 10y ago
sex·u·al as·sault: 1.an incident that involves sexual contact that is forced on somebody No, it isn't the same thing as rape. I wish we had a different term. But dismissing this as "not sexual assault" is not a great place for this discussion to start, for a number of reasons.
- gozur88 10y ago
  Redefining well understood terms is also not a great place for the discussion to start.
  - Mz 10y ago
    I actually looked the term up online and copied and pasted it here because I generally agree with you that this is not a great use of the term (see my own previous blog post where I bitch about something similar: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-woman-rants-about-man-bashy-stuff.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-woman-rant...). But, really, as someone who is very openly female on this forum, I am finding the discussion here kind of threatening and dismissive. The comments here create an impression that many men kind of think "Eh, no big deal feeling a woman up virtually. It isn't like it's REALLY sexual assault." And I have been downvoted and your remark here has apparently been upvoted, which implies a general attitude of the overarching crowd, not just an isolated opinion being expressed. It is no wonder so many women are afraid of not only participation in VR, but even openly participating in many male dominated internet spaces.
    - x1798DE 10y ago
      > The comments here create an impression that many men kind of think "Eh, no big deal feeling a woman up virtually. It isn't like it's REALLY sexual assault." I don't think anyone has at all insinuated that this would be acceptable behaviour, people are just reacting to the editorialized headline claiming this is sexual assault, which is a term generally used for more serious offenses. In the same way that people would almost certainly react the same way if you claimed that you were assaulted when someone knocked the books out of your hands. Technically true and no one is on the other guy's side, but (in that situation), you'd be being melodramatic. I think it goes without saying that this sort of behavior is rude and annoying, but honestly it's not any different than other rude and annoying behaviour engaged in by immature people, whether they are tea bagging your avatar or calling you a faggot on the chat.
      - Mz 10y ago
        No, it doesn't go without saying and thank you for saying it because every single reply to me has been essentially dismissive. This is what a lot of women mean when they talk about rape culture. And I find it enormously frustrating that no one here seems to see why a woman would feel that a group of presumably all men responding in a consistently dismissive fashion would create a threatening atmosphere that has the potential to encourage bad behavior towards women of the sort described in the article.
- leesalminen 10y ago
  No contact[0] ever occurred. These are pixels on a screen. [0] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/contact http://www.dictionary.com/browse/contact Contact the act or state of touching; a touching or meeting, as of two things or people.
  - Mz 10y ago
    Remember that little digression I told you about how the hundred-foot drop looked so convincing? Yeah. Guess what. The virtual groping feels just as real. Of course, you're not physically being touched, just like you're not actually one hundred feet off the ground, but it's still scary as hell.
    - leesalminen 10y ago
      While unwanted virtual contact may be scary to some, it is not "contact" as defined by language and does not constitute sexual assault.
      - Mz 10y ago
        First, contact can mean communication with someone. Second, the internet has moderators all over it because merely saying ugly things to or about people can potentially cause real world harm. The article admits that no actual physical contact occurred. I agree the term sexual assault is problematic. But it is the norm for there to not be a ready made term for completely new, previously unavailable experiences. Anyway, I am planning on stepping away from this discussion. I find it galling that it is being limited to simply dismissing what happened to her as if her fear and upset don't really count because "it was just pixels on a screen."
      - bitwize 10y ago
        IANAL but assault consists of harmful or offensive contact, or the threat of same. Under this definition: * psychological harm counts as harm * an activity which has the same psychological effect as contact may be defined as contact under law, especially when VR starts to incorporate haptic feedback * the law may still allow prosecution under the rubric that "virtual groping" constitutes a threat, as it certainly feels threatening * many women's rights groups consider the use of certain language or communication to be "violence against women"; and some jurisdictions may prosecute it as such The answer is it's not clear. The courts will eventually decide the issue.

steauengeglase 10y ago

Time to patch in a pan-dimensional baka-hammer.

kinkdr 10y ago

There is no denial that the author had an unpleasant experience, but it is nowhere close to what a real-life sexual assault feels like. If I was the author I would choose different words to describe the experience out of respect of people who have been sexually assaulted in real life.

hyperjeff 10y ago
Of course, the author would agree that it's not close to real-life assault. If I said, "I shot a bear in virtual reality," it would be missing the point to complain that it's nowhere close to real-life bear shooting. No one said it was real-life, quite the contrary. The story does bring up a central trouble spot in multiplayer gaming: no mechanisms in place for holding players responsible for being an asshat.

blackflame7000 10y ago

If this qualifies as sexual assault then I have been murdered about 40,000 times between halo and cod. Articles like this do a disservice to actual victims of heinous acts.

x1798DE 10y ago

Nowhere in this article does the author say she was sexually assaulted, and if this was the original headline it has since been changed to the original medium post's headline: "My First Virtual Reality Groping" This is, by the way, a repost of the medium post that was previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12777340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12777340 I think this version adds nothing to the original version, which has identical text.

raarts 10y ago

Being treated as a actual object is something every woman has to deal with. In the real world there are laws and social norms, but in VR apparently nobody steps up if they see it happening. I can see this being a very unpleasant experience, and if behaviour like this becomes normal/acceptable in VR I can imagine it takes the fun out of it. Also, groping in real life does not do the body any physical damage too. But it's still outlawed.