4 ms·

How does anything on your list stem from owning vs renting? Presumably if you were renting - you would still garden and you or your landlord would still maint

How does anything on your list stem from owning vs renting? Presumably if you were renting - you would still garden and you or your landlord would still maintain the lawn - your landlord would still maintain the house - you would still be living in the community and therefore motivated to participate in it's government - I don't understand this one at all. Why would a second family suddenly move in if the house was rented?

kodablah 10y ago
Your points miss both the financial incentive to make things better for your own asset and long term incentive since oftentimes renting makes one more nomadic. Point by point: - You might not garden w/ no equitable return on house value (or at least not build a large gardening setup), and landlords feel the same way in reverse (no benefit to them to do anything beyond the minimum once it's inhabited) - Maintain != improve...BIG difference - Except you may be more nomadic. Also you missed the GP's use of the word "stakeholder" of which you are considerably less of if you don't own land in the community - I too don't understand this point...but I think the GP means "multi-family" as in apartments, thereby single-family (i.e. standalone house) is higher "premium" therefore you contribute more. Again, not sure here.
- Retric 10y ago
  Increasing home ownership lowers economic growth. People tend to move jobs less often and have longer commutes both of which reduces economic efficiency. People also tend to rent places which more closely match their needs further reducing waste. AKA, renting and there is no need for a kids room until you have kids, but when buying you may need to plan for your needs in 5+ years out. Further, people really do rent the same place for 30+ years when their job and family situation is stable, which incentives similar levels of improvement.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Source? Housing has driven US GDP growth since WW2 or earlier, so that's a pretty big leap.
    - Retric 10y ago
      Housing != home ownership. Anyway, I have read this a few places, but here is the first link I found. "Regions with higher home ownership created fewer new businesses, had longer commute times, and lower rates of labor mobility." http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/05/08/the-deep-downside-of-home-ownership.aspx http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/05/08/the-deep-do... Further, GDP is a very short term view of the economy. Daycare is a classic example where going from an informal to formal system nominally increases GDP much more than the net increase in value.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  When I rented I gardened. I haven't the slightest clue why you believe someone wouldn't garden when they rent. In fact the place I rented I picked because I could garden.
  - kodablah 10y ago
    Hence "might" and the parenthetical "or at least not build a large gardening setup". To rephrase, without ownership of the asset, the renter (and landlord after contract signed) is less incentivized to "work the land" for whatever definition of that you have. Sometimes the setup (irrigation, structural changes, etc) is not worth it or not allowed to the renter. Also unfair to use your anecdotal opinion of whether or not to garden to keep from having the slightest clue why other renters might not.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    >I haven't the slightest clue why you believe someone wouldn't garden when they rent. I do. My sister likes to garden, and when she was renting she put a lot of effort into creating a large, beautiful garden. Then the landlord decided she needed to move her ailing mother closer and terminated my sister's lease. After that my sister didn't bother with a garden until she bought a house.
  - quicklyfrozen 10y ago
    As a landlord, I'd be pretty unhappy with tenants gardening on my land -- that's just an extra expense as I'd have to maintain it or convert it back when they leave. Maybe if they signed a long lease...
- hx87 10y ago
  > You might not garden w/ no equitable return on house value (or at least not build a large gardening setup) The return is the experience and joy of gardening, which occurs whether I own or rent. > landlords feel the same way in reverse (no benefit to them to do anything beyond the minimum once it's inhabited) I'm willing to pay more in rent for a higher quality residence. A well maintained garden (or the tools to make one) would certainly count towards quality. > Except you may be more nomadic. Also you missed the GP's use of the word "stakeholder" of which you are considerably less of if you don't own land in the community Even if I live in a place for a single week, I don't want to live in a shithole for that week. My experience living in a neighborhood makes me a stakeholder, even if I don't own land there.
Spooky23 10y ago
Residential properties usually have short term leases. You have minimal incentive as a tenant to plant flowers, buy shrubs, etc. You have minimal inventive as a landlord to make the house look any more attractive than it needs to be. Landlords don't maintain property to the same standard as an individual homeowner, when they do, they use more efficient service models (ie. a single crew with a single set of tools) to do so. Tenants participate less and have much lower engagement. They have 1 year leases, and have less at stake. In my community, renters participate 60% less in terms of voting. There are 150 members of my local neighborhood association, and per a recent survey, 90% of participants are homeowners. They mostly solicit membership by dropping flyers and advertising in church bulletins. Per census figures, the population of renters is somewhere between 60-70% vs. homeowners. The last point is that without homeownership, incentives shift to multi-family dwellings because they are cheaper and more efficient. Single family homes for rent are usually an aberration in my experience. As a homeowner in a city that is mostly rentals the per-unit taxable value of a multi-family house is significantly less than a single family.
- dionidium 10y ago
  I don't actually know the answer to this, but wouldn't you expect everything you say to be true in a society where ownership is the norm and not the case in a society where it isn't?
- heisenbit 10y ago
  "Residential properties usually have short term leases." Not true in Germany. Most leases are indefinite. As the contractual rent often increases by less than the market there is some incentive to stay put. Also keep in mind that moving in Germany is an expensive proposition as the kitchen is usually not part of the deal.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Germany has a different legal system and tradition. The probability of the US enacting indefinite leases is zero.

kodablah 10y ago

Your points miss both the financial incentive to make things better for your own asset and long term incentive since oftentimes renting makes one more nomadic. Point by point: - You might not garden w/ no equitable return on house value (or at least not build a large gardening setup), and landlords feel the same way in reverse (no benefit to them to do anything beyond the minimum once it's inhabited) - Maintain != improve...BIG difference - Except you may be more nomadic. Also you missed the GP's use of the word "stakeholder" of which you are considerably less of if you don't own land in the community - I too don't understand this point...but I think the GP means "multi-family" as in apartments, thereby single-family (i.e. standalone house) is higher "premium" therefore you contribute more. Again, not sure here.

Retric 10y ago
Increasing home ownership lowers economic growth. People tend to move jobs less often and have longer commutes both of which reduces economic efficiency. People also tend to rent places which more closely match their needs further reducing waste. AKA, renting and there is no need for a kids room until you have kids, but when buying you may need to plan for your needs in 5+ years out. Further, people really do rent the same place for 30+ years when their job and family situation is stable, which incentives similar levels of improvement.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Source? Housing has driven US GDP growth since WW2 or earlier, so that's a pretty big leap.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Housing != home ownership. Anyway, I have read this a few places, but here is the first link I found. "Regions with higher home ownership created fewer new businesses, had longer commute times, and lower rates of labor mobility." http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/05/08/the-deep-downside-of-home-ownership.aspx http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/05/08/the-deep-do... Further, GDP is a very short term view of the economy. Daycare is a classic example where going from an informal to formal system nominally increases GDP much more than the net increase in value.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
When I rented I gardened. I haven't the slightest clue why you believe someone wouldn't garden when they rent. In fact the place I rented I picked because I could garden.
- kodablah 10y ago
  Hence "might" and the parenthetical "or at least not build a large gardening setup". To rephrase, without ownership of the asset, the renter (and landlord after contract signed) is less incentivized to "work the land" for whatever definition of that you have. Sometimes the setup (irrigation, structural changes, etc) is not worth it or not allowed to the renter. Also unfair to use your anecdotal opinion of whether or not to garden to keep from having the slightest clue why other renters might not.
- gozur88 10y ago
  >I haven't the slightest clue why you believe someone wouldn't garden when they rent. I do. My sister likes to garden, and when she was renting she put a lot of effort into creating a large, beautiful garden. Then the landlord decided she needed to move her ailing mother closer and terminated my sister's lease. After that my sister didn't bother with a garden until she bought a house.
- quicklyfrozen 10y ago
  As a landlord, I'd be pretty unhappy with tenants gardening on my land -- that's just an extra expense as I'd have to maintain it or convert it back when they leave. Maybe if they signed a long lease...
hx87 10y ago
> You might not garden w/ no equitable return on house value (or at least not build a large gardening setup) The return is the experience and joy of gardening, which occurs whether I own or rent. > landlords feel the same way in reverse (no benefit to them to do anything beyond the minimum once it's inhabited) I'm willing to pay more in rent for a higher quality residence. A well maintained garden (or the tools to make one) would certainly count towards quality. > Except you may be more nomadic. Also you missed the GP's use of the word "stakeholder" of which you are considerably less of if you don't own land in the community Even if I live in a place for a single week, I don't want to live in a shithole for that week. My experience living in a neighborhood makes me a stakeholder, even if I don't own land there.

Spooky23 10y ago

Residential properties usually have short term leases. You have minimal incentive as a tenant to plant flowers, buy shrubs, etc. You have minimal inventive as a landlord to make the house look any more attractive than it needs to be. Landlords don't maintain property to the same standard as an individual homeowner, when they do, they use more efficient service models (ie. a single crew with a single set of tools) to do so. Tenants participate less and have much lower engagement. They have 1 year leases, and have less at stake. In my community, renters participate 60% less in terms of voting. There are 150 members of my local neighborhood association, and per a recent survey, 90% of participants are homeowners. They mostly solicit membership by dropping flyers and advertising in church bulletins. Per census figures, the population of renters is somewhere between 60-70% vs. homeowners. The last point is that without homeownership, incentives shift to multi-family dwellings because they are cheaper and more efficient. Single family homes for rent are usually an aberration in my experience. As a homeowner in a city that is mostly rentals the per-unit taxable value of a multi-family house is significantly less than a single family.

dionidium 10y ago
I don't actually know the answer to this, but wouldn't you expect everything you say to be true in a society where ownership is the norm and not the case in a society where it isn't?
heisenbit 10y ago
"Residential properties usually have short term leases." Not true in Germany. Most leases are indefinite. As the contractual rent often increases by less than the market there is some incentive to stay put. Also keep in mind that moving in Germany is an expensive proposition as the kitchen is usually not part of the deal.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Germany has a different legal system and tradition. The probability of the US enacting indefinite leases is zero.