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Only people who try reasoning with two year olds can understand what sort of processes are truth seeking and capable of solving problems and being educational,

by curi 19y ago

Only people who try reasoning with two year olds can understand what sort of processes are truth seeking and capable of solving problems and being educational, or not? Or only people who try reasoning with two year olds get so frustrated that they feel hitting children is best?

Spyckie 19y ago
Further confirmation that you have not tried to reason with 2 year olds. Hitting children for discipline is a touchy subject because without a proper motivation behind it, it becomes very inhuman. However, sometimes a child doesn't have a large enough sense of the world to be rational. For instance, "don't stray very far from me" is a very reasonable command to give to a child because of safety concerns. However, what does a child know about kidnappers, careless drivers, or even the feeling of being lost? The child has to have some experience of these things (not direct, could be through stories, etc) in order to be able to reason why parents give that command. Because you don't have 3 years to explain to the child about the world, you have to have a more direct way of making them obey, and it is hard to think of a better way. Most of the ones you can think of involve some form of pain for the child because humans respond the most to pain first (and reasoning as an afterthought). The non-pain alternatives include letting your child do whatever they want to and take the consequences themselves, spending a lot of time enlarging their sense of the world, or making sure they understand that you mean to do good for them. Granted, nothing is perfect in parenting, and you really have to work with what you're given - that said, if your child won't listen to something that affects their wellbeing, you need to give them a reason to listen. Discipline is also only a part of parenting. You need to give them love, praise, and someone to look up to. Children dislike their parents when discipline is the only thing they remember when growing up. I want my kids to remember me when growing up, not as a family figurehead, but as a role model for them to grow into or beyond.
- curi 19y ago
  so suppose a child doesn't understand what "don't stray very far from me" means (like how far is OK). then imagine a spanking from his perspective. first he's confused, then hurt. or suppose he doesn't understand why to not stray very far and this makes a mistake about it's importance. then it's first ignorance, second pain. or suppose he doesn't understand what situations "don't stray very far from me" applies in and which it doesn't. then again, not knowing what his parent wants is followed by pain. there is no lesson or learning there. what's going on is a lack of communication followed by pain. there isn't even punishing disobedience, because disobedience didn't take place. that's one sort of way spanking can be completely senseless. now, suppose there was disobedience. is "disobey and i'll hurt you" really the best way to handle that? that's leadership by fear, not leadership by inspiration. you call this "a reason to listen" but it isn't, it's a reason to look for ways to avoid being hurt, whether they are what the parent wants, or not.
  - Spyckie 19y ago
    Please inspire your 2 year old child to obey your rules. Seriously, though, at least you can understand where it comes from. And discipline is not just smack smack smack and you're done. Discipline involves telling the child what they did wrong and why.
    - curi 19y ago
      Your approach is to assume the parent is right, and that his rules must be obeyed. This is not a way to find good ways to proceed on any issue. A better approach is to recognize that everyone makes mistakes, and the important thing is to institute policies that correct errors. That means rather than spending all your time making your rules be obeyed by any means necessary, there needs to be mechanism so that if you make a mistake you will be corrected (at least if anyone, including your child, is aware of it). This could be called "philosophically enlightened parenting" and it's better because it takes into account what we know about how knowledge is created (including knowledge of what to do in particular situations or how to solve problems in one's life including undesired behavior by one's child). That it doesn't hurt is nice too.
    - Tichy 19y ago
      Spanking is not telling what is wrong. If the 2 year old child can not yet understand the rules, how can it be fair to punish them? If it can't understand words, why should it magically understand being hit? Just go out on the street and look at people walking their dogs. Do you think it makes a lot of sense if those people get angry with their dogs, you know the kind who go "bad doggy" all the time and have full conversations with their dogs? I don't think it does, because dogs can not even understand what these people are saying. They are fooling themselves, and so apparently are you with your communication with kids (I mean it seems to be a human error). (I know the dog can probably understand it did something wrong, even if not WHAT it did wrong, but I hope you know what kind of people I am talking about - a lot of time the human-dog communication just doesn't make sense, but humans somehow fool themselves).

by curi 19y ago

Spyckie 19y ago

Further confirmation that you have not tried to reason with 2 year olds. Hitting children for discipline is a touchy subject because without a proper motivation behind it, it becomes very inhuman. However, sometimes a child doesn't have a large enough sense of the world to be rational. For instance, "don't stray very far from me" is a very reasonable command to give to a child because of safety concerns. However, what does a child know about kidnappers, careless drivers, or even the feeling of being lost? The child has to have some experience of these things (not direct, could be through stories, etc) in order to be able to reason why parents give that command. Because you don't have 3 years to explain to the child about the world, you have to have a more direct way of making them obey, and it is hard to think of a better way. Most of the ones you can think of involve some form of pain for the child because humans respond the most to pain first (and reasoning as an afterthought). The non-pain alternatives include letting your child do whatever they want to and take the consequences themselves, spending a lot of time enlarging their sense of the world, or making sure they understand that you mean to do good for them. Granted, nothing is perfect in parenting, and you really have to work with what you're given - that said, if your child won't listen to something that affects their wellbeing, you need to give them a reason to listen. Discipline is also only a part of parenting. You need to give them love, praise, and someone to look up to. Children dislike their parents when discipline is the only thing they remember when growing up. I want my kids to remember me when growing up, not as a family figurehead, but as a role model for them to grow into or beyond.

curi 19y ago
so suppose a child doesn't understand what "don't stray very far from me" means (like how far is OK). then imagine a spanking from his perspective. first he's confused, then hurt. or suppose he doesn't understand why to not stray very far and this makes a mistake about it's importance. then it's first ignorance, second pain. or suppose he doesn't understand what situations "don't stray very far from me" applies in and which it doesn't. then again, not knowing what his parent wants is followed by pain. there is no lesson or learning there. what's going on is a lack of communication followed by pain. there isn't even punishing disobedience, because disobedience didn't take place. that's one sort of way spanking can be completely senseless. now, suppose there was disobedience. is "disobey and i'll hurt you" really the best way to handle that? that's leadership by fear, not leadership by inspiration. you call this "a reason to listen" but it isn't, it's a reason to look for ways to avoid being hurt, whether they are what the parent wants, or not.
- Spyckie 19y ago
  Please inspire your 2 year old child to obey your rules. Seriously, though, at least you can understand where it comes from. And discipline is not just smack smack smack and you're done. Discipline involves telling the child what they did wrong and why.
  - curi 19y ago
    Your approach is to assume the parent is right, and that his rules must be obeyed. This is not a way to find good ways to proceed on any issue. A better approach is to recognize that everyone makes mistakes, and the important thing is to institute policies that correct errors. That means rather than spending all your time making your rules be obeyed by any means necessary, there needs to be mechanism so that if you make a mistake you will be corrected (at least if anyone, including your child, is aware of it). This could be called "philosophically enlightened parenting" and it's better because it takes into account what we know about how knowledge is created (including knowledge of what to do in particular situations or how to solve problems in one's life including undesired behavior by one's child). That it doesn't hurt is nice too.
  - Tichy 19y ago
    Spanking is not telling what is wrong. If the 2 year old child can not yet understand the rules, how can it be fair to punish them? If it can't understand words, why should it magically understand being hit? Just go out on the street and look at people walking their dogs. Do you think it makes a lot of sense if those people get angry with their dogs, you know the kind who go "bad doggy" all the time and have full conversations with their dogs? I don't think it does, because dogs can not even understand what these people are saying. They are fooling themselves, and so apparently are you with your communication with kids (I mean it seems to be a human error). (I know the dog can probably understand it did something wrong, even if not WHAT it did wrong, but I hope you know what kind of people I am talking about - a lot of time the human-dog communication just doesn't make sense, but humans somehow fool themselves).