4 ms·

> My opinion is that the failure of Microsoft has less to do with Ballmer than with the absence of a Steve Jobs. This argument would be a lot stronger had Micr

> My opinion is that the failure of Microsoft has less to do with Ballmer than with the absence of a Steve Jobs. This argument would be a lot stronger had Microsoft not begun making such major improvements as soon as Ballmer was replaced with Nadella.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Have they really, though? I mean, sure, they've got the ole' hype train's pistons pumping and the fanboys woohooing, but they still have produced a version of Windows that is clunky and controversial. They open sourced some stuff, but that's only because they are pushing for the clouds, not some actual change in philosophy. Microsoft's changes are all skin deep.
- the_watcher 10y ago
  Yes, they have. I know there is a lot of institutional hatred for Microsoft from the tech sector that will take a while to overcome. But you'll be able to call changes "skin deep" forever if you choose to explain anything positive away as marketing only.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    They haven't managed to release a flagship Windows phone for more than a year, Windows 10 is still a disaster, and Surface Book's execution was incredibly botched. Yeah, there is some good stuff for developers, but their consumer-facing segment is still in shambles.
    - Fej 10y ago
      Surface Book is a fantastic device. What was botched?
      - rayiner 10y ago
        Power management was broken: http://www.techtimes.com/articles/166667/20160623/microsoft-surface-book-surface-pro-4-firmware-updates-bring-battery-improvements-and-sleep-mode-fix-heres-the-deal.htm http://www.techtimes.com/articles/166667/20160623/microsoft-....
    - WayneBro 10y ago
      Windows 10 is not a disaster and never has been. There's great stuff for everybody. It's the same rock-solid OS that every business depends on, that is still able to run all the software from 20 years ago, yet it also offers a ton of new functionality. What other desktop OS can you say that about? IMO, there isn't a better desktop OS out there. Just last night I was actually running some games from 1995 on my 5 year old PC running Windows 10 that is plugged into my brand new 4k smart tv.
      - rayiner 10y ago
        Windows 10 is still a schizoid failure to merge the "desktop" and "modern" worlds: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/control-panel-and-settings-uis-why-are-both-still-options-in-windows-10 http://www.techrepublic.com/article/control-panel-and-settin.... High-DPI scaling is a disaster that is only now being fixed in the Anniversary update: https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/askcore/2016/08/16/display-scaling-changes-for-the-windows-10-anniversary-update https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/askcore/2016/08/16/displ.... There are battery life regressions even on Microsoft hardware: https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3isuu4/windows_10_vs_windows_81_battery_life_sp3 https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3isuu4/windows_10_....
        WayneBro 10y ago
        Wow. So, your evidence that it's a "disaster" is one random blog post and a handful of reddit complaints... That's a BIG deal. I guess I should go uninstall Windows 10 from all the High-DPI devices that I'm running it on right now and install...what? I'm guessing that anything that's not perfect qualifies as a disaster in your opinion. Could you recommend an OS for me? I'll go and make sure that there are no critical articles about it and that the OS manufacturer has never had to fix anything because every major release came out perfectly the first time. Thanks!
        rayiner 10y ago
        I referenced the articles for the facts therein. Are you disputing that Windows 10 bizarrely has two different control panels? Or that it has trouble moving applications between high-DPI and regular-DPI settings? It's okay to "not be perfect" when it comes to extra features or marginal functions. But stuff like text display, configuration, and power management are things that an OS needs to get perfect.
    - unscaled 10y ago
      The smartphone ship has sailed long time ago, and no matter what magical flagship Microsoft releases, they would never gain dominance or even notability in the mobile space. Nadella himself as admitted as much. They're probably not going to focus on winning that lost battle, just as they're not going to try to beat Google with Bing. With all the great execution of Windows and Office, Steve Ballmer bled a lot of money on other businesses, constantly trying to overtake incumbent with generally inferior products that offered too little differentiation. Don't forget the Zune, the Kin and the early Windows phones, Bing, Microsoft Stores and so on. Almost no new line of products released by Microsoft during the Ballmer years actually managed to gain market - the Xbox being the sole exception, since it actually managed to differentiate itself well. At the same time, Microsoft was very slowly, but also very surely, bleeding market share at markets they traditionally dominate like desktop browsers and consumer OS. I think Tim Cook at the very least didn't get any embarrassing failure on his name yet, and iOS is not stagnating the way Internet Explorer, Office and Windows Mobile did.
- WayneBro 10y ago
  > clunky... In your opinion. > and controversial... Great products often are controversial. > Microsoft's changes are all skin deep. It's easy to say so, but where are your actual arguments? I didn't see any. I challenge you to write an article about how "Microsoft's changes are all skin deep" and post it here on HN.
cm2187 10y ago
I am not sure it has. Surface isn't exactly an ipad killer. And the more I use Windows 10, the more I miss Windows 7.
- the_watcher 10y ago
  2 flawed products does not negate everything else that has improved. I say this as someone who still has not bought a Microsoft product in over 5 years.
- douche 10y ago
  I just bought a refurbished EliteBook that came with Windows 7, after using Windows 10 since it came out. The rose-tinted glasses are real, and 10 is indeed > 7. I need to find my 10 Enterprise MSDN disk.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago

Have they really, though? I mean, sure, they've got the ole' hype train's pistons pumping and the fanboys woohooing, but they still have produced a version of Windows that is clunky and controversial. They open sourced some stuff, but that's only because they are pushing for the clouds, not some actual change in philosophy. Microsoft's changes are all skin deep.

the_watcher 10y ago
Yes, they have. I know there is a lot of institutional hatred for Microsoft from the tech sector that will take a while to overcome. But you'll be able to call changes "skin deep" forever if you choose to explain anything positive away as marketing only.
- rayiner 10y ago
  They haven't managed to release a flagship Windows phone for more than a year, Windows 10 is still a disaster, and Surface Book's execution was incredibly botched. Yeah, there is some good stuff for developers, but their consumer-facing segment is still in shambles.
  - Fej 10y ago
    Surface Book is a fantastic device. What was botched?
    - rayiner 10y ago
      Power management was broken: http://www.techtimes.com/articles/166667/20160623/microsoft-surface-book-surface-pro-4-firmware-updates-bring-battery-improvements-and-sleep-mode-fix-heres-the-deal.htm http://www.techtimes.com/articles/166667/20160623/microsoft-....
  - WayneBro 10y ago
    Windows 10 is not a disaster and never has been. There's great stuff for everybody. It's the same rock-solid OS that every business depends on, that is still able to run all the software from 20 years ago, yet it also offers a ton of new functionality. What other desktop OS can you say that about? IMO, there isn't a better desktop OS out there. Just last night I was actually running some games from 1995 on my 5 year old PC running Windows 10 that is plugged into my brand new 4k smart tv.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      Windows 10 is still a schizoid failure to merge the "desktop" and "modern" worlds: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/control-panel-and-settings-uis-why-are-both-still-options-in-windows-10 http://www.techrepublic.com/article/control-panel-and-settin.... High-DPI scaling is a disaster that is only now being fixed in the Anniversary update: https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/askcore/2016/08/16/display-scaling-changes-for-the-windows-10-anniversary-update https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/askcore/2016/08/16/displ.... There are battery life regressions even on Microsoft hardware: https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3isuu4/windows_10_vs_windows_81_battery_life_sp3 https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3isuu4/windows_10_....
      - WayneBro 10y ago
        Wow. So, your evidence that it's a "disaster" is one random blog post and a handful of reddit complaints... That's a BIG deal. I guess I should go uninstall Windows 10 from all the High-DPI devices that I'm running it on right now and install...what? I'm guessing that anything that's not perfect qualifies as a disaster in your opinion. Could you recommend an OS for me? I'll go and make sure that there are no critical articles about it and that the OS manufacturer has never had to fix anything because every major release came out perfectly the first time. Thanks!
        rayiner 10y ago
        I referenced the articles for the facts therein. Are you disputing that Windows 10 bizarrely has two different control panels? Or that it has trouble moving applications between high-DPI and regular-DPI settings? It's okay to "not be perfect" when it comes to extra features or marginal functions. But stuff like text display, configuration, and power management are things that an OS needs to get perfect.
  - unscaled 10y ago
    The smartphone ship has sailed long time ago, and no matter what magical flagship Microsoft releases, they would never gain dominance or even notability in the mobile space. Nadella himself as admitted as much. They're probably not going to focus on winning that lost battle, just as they're not going to try to beat Google with Bing. With all the great execution of Windows and Office, Steve Ballmer bled a lot of money on other businesses, constantly trying to overtake incumbent with generally inferior products that offered too little differentiation. Don't forget the Zune, the Kin and the early Windows phones, Bing, Microsoft Stores and so on. Almost no new line of products released by Microsoft during the Ballmer years actually managed to gain market - the Xbox being the sole exception, since it actually managed to differentiate itself well. At the same time, Microsoft was very slowly, but also very surely, bleeding market share at markets they traditionally dominate like desktop browsers and consumer OS. I think Tim Cook at the very least didn't get any embarrassing failure on his name yet, and iOS is not stagnating the way Internet Explorer, Office and Windows Mobile did.
WayneBro 10y ago
> clunky... In your opinion. > and controversial... Great products often are controversial. > Microsoft's changes are all skin deep. It's easy to say so, but where are your actual arguments? I didn't see any. I challenge you to write an article about how "Microsoft's changes are all skin deep" and post it here on HN.

cm2187 10y ago

I am not sure it has. Surface isn't exactly an ipad killer. And the more I use Windows 10, the more I miss Windows 7.

the_watcher 10y ago
2 flawed products does not negate everything else that has improved. I say this as someone who still has not bought a Microsoft product in over 5 years.
douche 10y ago
I just bought a refurbished EliteBook that came with Windows 7, after using Windows 10 since it came out. The rose-tinted glasses are real, and 10 is indeed > 7. I need to find my 10 Enterprise MSDN disk.