4 ms·

The reason hitting people is bad is not that you will get hit back. That is one reason, but it's not the most important one, otherwise it'd be ok to hit defense

by curi 19y ago

The reason hitting people is bad is not that you will get hit back. That is one reason, but it's not the most important one, otherwise it'd be ok to hit defenseless people (like one's children). Hitting people is an ineffective way of life -- it is bad for yourself. When you cooperate, you both win. When you fight, at most one of you wins, and usually you both lose (even if you don't get hurt, peaceful people will now keep their distance). Fighting is also an irrational approach to conflict resolution. It makes no attempt to have the best idea implemented. Instead, it implements the idea of the physically strongest person. That is not a way to find the truth or to achieve good outcomes.

mhb 19y ago
Spoken like someone who has never reasoned with a two year old.
- curi 19y ago
  Only people who try reasoning with two year olds can understand what sort of processes are truth seeking and capable of solving problems and being educational, or not? Or only people who try reasoning with two year olds get so frustrated that they feel hitting children is best?
  - Spyckie 19y ago
    Further confirmation that you have not tried to reason with 2 year olds. Hitting children for discipline is a touchy subject because without a proper motivation behind it, it becomes very inhuman. However, sometimes a child doesn't have a large enough sense of the world to be rational. For instance, "don't stray very far from me" is a very reasonable command to give to a child because of safety concerns. However, what does a child know about kidnappers, careless drivers, or even the feeling of being lost? The child has to have some experience of these things (not direct, could be through stories, etc) in order to be able to reason why parents give that command. Because you don't have 3 years to explain to the child about the world, you have to have a more direct way of making them obey, and it is hard to think of a better way. Most of the ones you can think of involve some form of pain for the child because humans respond the most to pain first (and reasoning as an afterthought). The non-pain alternatives include letting your child do whatever they want to and take the consequences themselves, spending a lot of time enlarging their sense of the world, or making sure they understand that you mean to do good for them. Granted, nothing is perfect in parenting, and you really have to work with what you're given - that said, if your child won't listen to something that affects their wellbeing, you need to give them a reason to listen. Discipline is also only a part of parenting. You need to give them love, praise, and someone to look up to. Children dislike their parents when discipline is the only thing they remember when growing up. I want my kids to remember me when growing up, not as a family figurehead, but as a role model for them to grow into or beyond.
    - curi 19y ago
      so suppose a child doesn't understand what "don't stray very far from me" means (like how far is OK). then imagine a spanking from his perspective. first he's confused, then hurt. or suppose he doesn't understand why to not stray very far and this makes a mistake about it's importance. then it's first ignorance, second pain. or suppose he doesn't understand what situations "don't stray very far from me" applies in and which it doesn't. then again, not knowing what his parent wants is followed by pain. there is no lesson or learning there. what's going on is a lack of communication followed by pain. there isn't even punishing disobedience, because disobedience didn't take place. that's one sort of way spanking can be completely senseless. now, suppose there was disobedience. is "disobey and i'll hurt you" really the best way to handle that? that's leadership by fear, not leadership by inspiration. you call this "a reason to listen" but it isn't, it's a reason to look for ways to avoid being hurt, whether they are what the parent wants, or not.
      - Spyckie 19y ago
        Please inspire your 2 year old child to obey your rules. Seriously, though, at least you can understand where it comes from. And discipline is not just smack smack smack and you're done. Discipline involves telling the child what they did wrong and why.
        curi 19y ago
        Your approach is to assume the parent is right, and that his rules must be obeyed. This is not a way to find good ways to proceed on any issue. A better approach is to recognize that everyone makes mistakes, and the important thing is to institute policies that correct errors. That means rather than spending all your time making your rules be obeyed by any means necessary, there needs to be mechanism so that if you make a mistake you will be corrected (at least if anyone, including your child, is aware of it). This could be called "philosophically enlightened parenting" and it's better because it takes into account what we know about how knowledge is created (including knowledge of what to do in particular situations or how to solve problems in one's life including undesired behavior by one's child). That it doesn't hurt is nice too.
- noonespecial 19y ago
  2 year olds have not reached the age of reason. Reasoning with them only gets you a restatement of their desires without any logical context whatsoever: Daddy, I want to play over there! Son, there's a constant stream of cars going by at 40mph, you will die instantly or be hurt worse than you can possibly imagine. But I WAAANNNT TOOOO... Spanking (when administered carefully and without angry reaction) seems to be a valid form of behavior modification for a creature that does not have any reasoning ability because it allows aversion to be stored directly in the same part of the brain that is motivating desire. Its probably better to reason with a 9 year old than spank but as the parent states, anyone who thinks that a 2 year old can reason, doesn't have one.
  - curi 19y ago
    so, if i tell you (and provide evidence) that I am a parent of a 2 year old, will you concede the point? or if i produce other such parents of toddlers who agree with me, will you concede?
  - kajecounterhack 19y ago
    Agreed, spanking is viable as long as the child is still young. Also, it should only be done on the flat of the palm or on the buttocks, and not too hard. The goal isn't to inflict pain, but to send the child a message that what he did was wrong. The kid will most likely cry even though your hitting his/her hand will not really hurt. Its the fact that you're hitting them that they don't like, cause its a negative connotation. Aside from it, lots of love and affection! Kids need attention while they're young or they'll claim you're a bad parent. They need affirmation.
    - curi 19y ago
      What criterion did you use for determining which are the best places to hit children?
    - Tichy 19y ago
      Oh my god this thread is really shocking! So because you can not reason logically with a two year old, you somehow think that if you spank them, they will make the logical connection? That doesn't add up - either they are capable of understanding, then it shouldn't matter if you say "no" or hit them (in a logical sense, emotionally of course there is a difference). Or they are not capable of making the connection. In which case what you are trying to do is conditioning them, rooting "being hit by daddy" into their nervous system - maiming their soul! I can't believe this thread, really.
- Tichy 19y ago
  Are you saying that it can be OK to spank kids who are two years old???? I am completely horrified.

by curi 19y ago

mhb 19y ago

Spoken like someone who has never reasoned with a two year old.

curi 19y ago
Only people who try reasoning with two year olds can understand what sort of processes are truth seeking and capable of solving problems and being educational, or not? Or only people who try reasoning with two year olds get so frustrated that they feel hitting children is best?
- Spyckie 19y ago
  Further confirmation that you have not tried to reason with 2 year olds. Hitting children for discipline is a touchy subject because without a proper motivation behind it, it becomes very inhuman. However, sometimes a child doesn't have a large enough sense of the world to be rational. For instance, "don't stray very far from me" is a very reasonable command to give to a child because of safety concerns. However, what does a child know about kidnappers, careless drivers, or even the feeling of being lost? The child has to have some experience of these things (not direct, could be through stories, etc) in order to be able to reason why parents give that command. Because you don't have 3 years to explain to the child about the world, you have to have a more direct way of making them obey, and it is hard to think of a better way. Most of the ones you can think of involve some form of pain for the child because humans respond the most to pain first (and reasoning as an afterthought). The non-pain alternatives include letting your child do whatever they want to and take the consequences themselves, spending a lot of time enlarging their sense of the world, or making sure they understand that you mean to do good for them. Granted, nothing is perfect in parenting, and you really have to work with what you're given - that said, if your child won't listen to something that affects their wellbeing, you need to give them a reason to listen. Discipline is also only a part of parenting. You need to give them love, praise, and someone to look up to. Children dislike their parents when discipline is the only thing they remember when growing up. I want my kids to remember me when growing up, not as a family figurehead, but as a role model for them to grow into or beyond.
  - curi 19y ago
    so suppose a child doesn't understand what "don't stray very far from me" means (like how far is OK). then imagine a spanking from his perspective. first he's confused, then hurt. or suppose he doesn't understand why to not stray very far and this makes a mistake about it's importance. then it's first ignorance, second pain. or suppose he doesn't understand what situations "don't stray very far from me" applies in and which it doesn't. then again, not knowing what his parent wants is followed by pain. there is no lesson or learning there. what's going on is a lack of communication followed by pain. there isn't even punishing disobedience, because disobedience didn't take place. that's one sort of way spanking can be completely senseless. now, suppose there was disobedience. is "disobey and i'll hurt you" really the best way to handle that? that's leadership by fear, not leadership by inspiration. you call this "a reason to listen" but it isn't, it's a reason to look for ways to avoid being hurt, whether they are what the parent wants, or not.
    - Spyckie 19y ago
      Please inspire your 2 year old child to obey your rules. Seriously, though, at least you can understand where it comes from. And discipline is not just smack smack smack and you're done. Discipline involves telling the child what they did wrong and why.
      - curi 19y ago
        Your approach is to assume the parent is right, and that his rules must be obeyed. This is not a way to find good ways to proceed on any issue. A better approach is to recognize that everyone makes mistakes, and the important thing is to institute policies that correct errors. That means rather than spending all your time making your rules be obeyed by any means necessary, there needs to be mechanism so that if you make a mistake you will be corrected (at least if anyone, including your child, is aware of it). This could be called "philosophically enlightened parenting" and it's better because it takes into account what we know about how knowledge is created (including knowledge of what to do in particular situations or how to solve problems in one's life including undesired behavior by one's child). That it doesn't hurt is nice too.
noonespecial 19y ago
2 year olds have not reached the age of reason. Reasoning with them only gets you a restatement of their desires without any logical context whatsoever: Daddy, I want to play over there! Son, there's a constant stream of cars going by at 40mph, you will die instantly or be hurt worse than you can possibly imagine. But I WAAANNNT TOOOO... Spanking (when administered carefully and without angry reaction) seems to be a valid form of behavior modification for a creature that does not have any reasoning ability because it allows aversion to be stored directly in the same part of the brain that is motivating desire. Its probably better to reason with a 9 year old than spank but as the parent states, anyone who thinks that a 2 year old can reason, doesn't have one.
- curi 19y ago
  so, if i tell you (and provide evidence) that I am a parent of a 2 year old, will you concede the point? or if i produce other such parents of toddlers who agree with me, will you concede?
- kajecounterhack 19y ago
  Agreed, spanking is viable as long as the child is still young. Also, it should only be done on the flat of the palm or on the buttocks, and not too hard. The goal isn't to inflict pain, but to send the child a message that what he did was wrong. The kid will most likely cry even though your hitting his/her hand will not really hurt. Its the fact that you're hitting them that they don't like, cause its a negative connotation. Aside from it, lots of love and affection! Kids need attention while they're young or they'll claim you're a bad parent. They need affirmation.
  - curi 19y ago
    What criterion did you use for determining which are the best places to hit children?
  - Tichy 19y ago
    Oh my god this thread is really shocking! So because you can not reason logically with a two year old, you somehow think that if you spank them, they will make the logical connection? That doesn't add up - either they are capable of understanding, then it shouldn't matter if you say "no" or hit them (in a logical sense, emotionally of course there is a difference). Or they are not capable of making the connection. In which case what you are trying to do is conditioning them, rooting "being hit by daddy" into their nervous system - maiming their soul! I can't believe this thread, really.
Tichy 19y ago
Are you saying that it can be OK to spank kids who are two years old???? I am completely horrified.