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http://health.msn.com/kids-health/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100196272&GT1=31036 http://health.msn.com/kids-health/articlepage.aspx?cp-docume... That artic

by curi 19y ago

http://health.msn.com/kids-health/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100196272&GT1=31036 http://health.msn.com/kids-health/articlepage.aspx?cp-docume... That article says that 90% of American parents spank their toddlers. Whatever the real figure is, a lot of people's gut tells them that hitting their children is right. I agree with the sentiment that you shouldn't try to force some one-size-fits-all formula on your kids when it feels wrong. But we do need reason, frequently.

ghiotion 19y ago
Fair enough. However, I'm probably going to state what will be an unpopular opinion but one which is, I think, nevertheless true: spanking a child teaches a valuable lesson. I hardly ever do it, and I never do it as a punishment to be meted out later (as in, wait 'till your daddy gets home, then you're going to get it!). In the case where you've got a child who's prone to hit, I think it's reasonable to hit them back. Not with the same force, but it's a valuable lesson to learn that if you hit someone, you're going to get hit back. I don't want my kids to learn that they can physically intimate someone without consequence. Lacking that negative reinforcement, I _think_ you've got a bully in the making.
- curi 19y ago
  The reason hitting people is bad is not that you will get hit back. That is one reason, but it's not the most important one, otherwise it'd be ok to hit defenseless people (like one's children). Hitting people is an ineffective way of life -- it is bad for yourself. When you cooperate, you both win. When you fight, at most one of you wins, and usually you both lose (even if you don't get hurt, peaceful people will now keep their distance). Fighting is also an irrational approach to conflict resolution. It makes no attempt to have the best idea implemented. Instead, it implements the idea of the physically strongest person. That is not a way to find the truth or to achieve good outcomes.
  - mhb 19y ago
    Spoken like someone who has never reasoned with a two year old.
    - curi 19y ago
      Only people who try reasoning with two year olds can understand what sort of processes are truth seeking and capable of solving problems and being educational, or not? Or only people who try reasoning with two year olds get so frustrated that they feel hitting children is best?
      - Spyckie 19y ago
        Further confirmation that you have not tried to reason with 2 year olds. Hitting children for discipline is a touchy subject because without a proper motivation behind it, it becomes very inhuman. However, sometimes a child doesn't have a large enough sense of the world to be rational. For instance, "don't stray very far from me" is a very reasonable command to give to a child because of safety concerns. However, what does a child know about kidnappers, careless drivers, or even the feeling of being lost? The child has to have some experience of these things (not direct, could be through stories, etc) in order to be able to reason why parents give that command. Because you don't have 3 years to explain to the child about the world, you have to have a more direct way of making them obey, and it is hard to think of a better way. Most of the ones you can think of involve some form of pain for the child because humans respond the most to pain first (and reasoning as an afterthought). The non-pain alternatives include letting your child do whatever they want to and take the consequences themselves, spending a lot of time enlarging their sense of the world, or making sure they understand that you mean to do good for them. Granted, nothing is perfect in parenting, and you really have to work with what you're given - that said, if your child won't listen to something that affects their wellbeing, you need to give them a reason to listen. Discipline is also only a part of parenting. You need to give them love, praise, and someone to look up to. Children dislike their parents when discipline is the only thing they remember when growing up. I want my kids to remember me when growing up, not as a family figurehead, but as a role model for them to grow into or beyond.
        19y ago
- tokipin 19y ago
  i don't have any children of my own but i lived with my family while my younger brothers were growing up. none of us ever had to hit them. to me hitting a child is a dangerous shortcut to explaining things. if they recognize you care about them, why shouldn't they listen? that's what i saw in my brothers. they listened because they respected, in a true sense, their elders. violence will destroy their respect for you and alienate them they don't have to understand every word you say because they can hear compassion. i think if violence has to be used in a relationship, it's a broken relationship. but perhaps most parents don't see it as a relationship where respect has to go both ways. if your child is having tantrums against you, and not listening to you, something went wrong long ago, and using that as evidence that children can't be reasoned with is fallacious
- sanj 19y ago
  I was at Seaworld recently and they talked about they only used primary rewards (ie, food) with their animals rarely. The orcas responded better to all kinds of other feedback: backrubs, ice cubes, warm water, toys. I've never used spanking on my child. But I have used a variety of other techniques to express displeasure, ranging from freaked out yelling (in dangerous situations), to removing them from the situation, to denying dessert. I think that, like primary rewards in animal training or online ads in web startups, spanking represents an unimaginative approach to the problem. The lowest common denominator. The solution you use when you can't come up with anything better. I expect more than that out of myself and my son.
- matth 19y ago
  I was spanked something like 4 or 5 times by my father, and I agree with your action->consequence statements. I made sure to pass on lessons learned to my little brother and sister as well. My dad and I have been laughing about it for a long time now. I think my sister was only spanked 2 or 3 times. The last time any us of were spanked happened when my she wet her pants in Dad's lap. We laugh a lot about it, actually.

by curi 19y ago

ghiotion 19y ago

Fair enough. However, I'm probably going to state what will be an unpopular opinion but one which is, I think, nevertheless true: spanking a child teaches a valuable lesson. I hardly ever do it, and I never do it as a punishment to be meted out later (as in, wait 'till your daddy gets home, then you're going to get it!). In the case where you've got a child who's prone to hit, I think it's reasonable to hit them back. Not with the same force, but it's a valuable lesson to learn that if you hit someone, you're going to get hit back. I don't want my kids to learn that they can physically intimate someone without consequence. Lacking that negative reinforcement, I _think_ you've got a bully in the making.

curi 19y ago
The reason hitting people is bad is not that you will get hit back. That is one reason, but it's not the most important one, otherwise it'd be ok to hit defenseless people (like one's children). Hitting people is an ineffective way of life -- it is bad for yourself. When you cooperate, you both win. When you fight, at most one of you wins, and usually you both lose (even if you don't get hurt, peaceful people will now keep their distance). Fighting is also an irrational approach to conflict resolution. It makes no attempt to have the best idea implemented. Instead, it implements the idea of the physically strongest person. That is not a way to find the truth or to achieve good outcomes.
- mhb 19y ago
  Spoken like someone who has never reasoned with a two year old.
  - curi 19y ago
    Only people who try reasoning with two year olds can understand what sort of processes are truth seeking and capable of solving problems and being educational, or not? Or only people who try reasoning with two year olds get so frustrated that they feel hitting children is best?
    - Spyckie 19y ago
      Further confirmation that you have not tried to reason with 2 year olds. Hitting children for discipline is a touchy subject because without a proper motivation behind it, it becomes very inhuman. However, sometimes a child doesn't have a large enough sense of the world to be rational. For instance, "don't stray very far from me" is a very reasonable command to give to a child because of safety concerns. However, what does a child know about kidnappers, careless drivers, or even the feeling of being lost? The child has to have some experience of these things (not direct, could be through stories, etc) in order to be able to reason why parents give that command. Because you don't have 3 years to explain to the child about the world, you have to have a more direct way of making them obey, and it is hard to think of a better way. Most of the ones you can think of involve some form of pain for the child because humans respond the most to pain first (and reasoning as an afterthought). The non-pain alternatives include letting your child do whatever they want to and take the consequences themselves, spending a lot of time enlarging their sense of the world, or making sure they understand that you mean to do good for them. Granted, nothing is perfect in parenting, and you really have to work with what you're given - that said, if your child won't listen to something that affects their wellbeing, you need to give them a reason to listen. Discipline is also only a part of parenting. You need to give them love, praise, and someone to look up to. Children dislike their parents when discipline is the only thing they remember when growing up. I want my kids to remember me when growing up, not as a family figurehead, but as a role model for them to grow into or beyond.
      - 19y ago
tokipin 19y ago
i don't have any children of my own but i lived with my family while my younger brothers were growing up. none of us ever had to hit them. to me hitting a child is a dangerous shortcut to explaining things. if they recognize you care about them, why shouldn't they listen? that's what i saw in my brothers. they listened because they respected, in a true sense, their elders. violence will destroy their respect for you and alienate them they don't have to understand every word you say because they can hear compassion. i think if violence has to be used in a relationship, it's a broken relationship. but perhaps most parents don't see it as a relationship where respect has to go both ways. if your child is having tantrums against you, and not listening to you, something went wrong long ago, and using that as evidence that children can't be reasoned with is fallacious
sanj 19y ago
I was at Seaworld recently and they talked about they only used primary rewards (ie, food) with their animals rarely. The orcas responded better to all kinds of other feedback: backrubs, ice cubes, warm water, toys. I've never used spanking on my child. But I have used a variety of other techniques to express displeasure, ranging from freaked out yelling (in dangerous situations), to removing them from the situation, to denying dessert. I think that, like primary rewards in animal training or online ads in web startups, spanking represents an unimaginative approach to the problem. The lowest common denominator. The solution you use when you can't come up with anything better. I expect more than that out of myself and my son.
matth 19y ago
I was spanked something like 4 or 5 times by my father, and I agree with your action->consequence statements. I made sure to pass on lessons learned to my little brother and sister as well. My dad and I have been laughing about it for a long time now. I think my sister was only spanked 2 or 3 times. The last time any us of were spanked happened when my she wet her pants in Dad's lap. We laugh a lot about it, actually.