4 ms·

% wonder why people paint Russia as if it was some aggressive power like the US Anexation of the Crimea and fuelling of a civil war in the Ukraine?

coldtea 10y ago
Ukraine was together with Russia as parts of USSR, it's within its borders, and Crimea is a region where a large part of the population is of Russian ethnic origin (and which the rest of Ukrainians don't particularly like). It also had its voted-for government toppled (with the support of foreign powers), and pro-fascists coming into power. It was then that Russia intervened. That's "fueling of a civil war"? How does a country that left places it had absolutely no reason to be, as hell-holes of civil war and destruction say that with a straight face?
- MichaelMoser123 10y ago
  Russia signed the Budapest memorandum where she promised to honour post soviet state borders. You don't renege international treaties just like that, at least not in Europe. % That's "fueling of a civil war"? Russia also sent arms, volunteers and even regular troops into the conflict, it is a bloody damned proxy war.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    My point is, given the circumstances, it could very well be a full-on war and that would be legit too. It enters a "proxy war" to protect its large ethnic population in a bordering country -- and this only after the voted-for government of said country was toppled, and pro-fascists got into power who don't particularly like that population. For once, those are actual legit national "strategic interests", not "the world is ours so we have strategic interests all over the globe and we will crush anyone who steps on them" ones. The USSR used to do those too of course. But Russia is no USSR, and only a specific world player consistently does those the last 20+ years. Countries that have actually invaded other countries (4 of them in the last 20 years), have countless proxy wars, and leave behind hell holes of civil war and destruction have little basis to criticize. And in general, anybody who criticizes the second case, without criticizing 10 times as strongly the first, is at best a hypocrite.
    - MichaelMoser123 10y ago
      First you say that Russia is not fuelling a civil war and then you say that they are justified to do so. You are just running propaganda.
- makomk 10y ago
  It had its "voted-for government toppled"? Not in any usual sense of the word. The elected members of the Ukranian parliament just kicked out the President and a few of his buddies after they violently repressed protests caused by their actions. That seems a lot like democracy to me. Stepping in and annexing part of a country because your preferred candidate is no longer in power, on the other hand, is a huge affront to it - and the way that Russia sees the "parts of USSR" as their property regardless of what the inhabitants think is terrifying.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >The elected members of the Ukranian parliament just kicked out the President and a few of his buddies after they violently repressed protests caused by their actions. Sort of like Trump's elected republicans throwing out President Hillary and a few of her buddies, after weeks of protests by Tea Partiers who disagreed with what the actually elected government was doing and didn't want to wait 4 years for the next elections... >Stepping in and annexing part of a country because your preferred candidate is no longer in power, on the other hand, is a huge affront to it Better make it: because pro-fascists (literary: nazi sympathizers) are now in power after a coup, and they don't particularly like the Russian-ethnic population in their own country.
    - makomk 10y ago
      More like the Republicans and Democrats throwing out President Hillary and a few of her buddies for having Tea Party protestors shot. Also, the evidence for the Ukranian leadership being pro-Nazi fascists who hate ethnic Russians looked pretty weak and more like Russian propaganda last time I checked.
  - rorykoehler 10y ago
    I'm not a huge fan of Russian politics or US politics for that matter. That said when I read comments like yours I can only think of how you would feel if Russia had turned up in the US with war planes during the occupy demos?

coldtea 10y ago

Ukraine was together with Russia as parts of USSR, it's within its borders, and Crimea is a region where a large part of the population is of Russian ethnic origin (and which the rest of Ukrainians don't particularly like). It also had its voted-for government toppled (with the support of foreign powers), and pro-fascists coming into power. It was then that Russia intervened. That's "fueling of a civil war"? How does a country that left places it had absolutely no reason to be, as hell-holes of civil war and destruction say that with a straight face?

MichaelMoser123 10y ago
Russia signed the Budapest memorandum where she promised to honour post soviet state borders. You don't renege international treaties just like that, at least not in Europe. % That's "fueling of a civil war"? Russia also sent arms, volunteers and even regular troops into the conflict, it is a bloody damned proxy war.
- coldtea 10y ago
  My point is, given the circumstances, it could very well be a full-on war and that would be legit too. It enters a "proxy war" to protect its large ethnic population in a bordering country -- and this only after the voted-for government of said country was toppled, and pro-fascists got into power who don't particularly like that population. For once, those are actual legit national "strategic interests", not "the world is ours so we have strategic interests all over the globe and we will crush anyone who steps on them" ones. The USSR used to do those too of course. But Russia is no USSR, and only a specific world player consistently does those the last 20+ years. Countries that have actually invaded other countries (4 of them in the last 20 years), have countless proxy wars, and leave behind hell holes of civil war and destruction have little basis to criticize. And in general, anybody who criticizes the second case, without criticizing 10 times as strongly the first, is at best a hypocrite.
  - MichaelMoser123 10y ago
    First you say that Russia is not fuelling a civil war and then you say that they are justified to do so. You are just running propaganda.
makomk 10y ago
It had its "voted-for government toppled"? Not in any usual sense of the word. The elected members of the Ukranian parliament just kicked out the President and a few of his buddies after they violently repressed protests caused by their actions. That seems a lot like democracy to me. Stepping in and annexing part of a country because your preferred candidate is no longer in power, on the other hand, is a huge affront to it - and the way that Russia sees the "parts of USSR" as their property regardless of what the inhabitants think is terrifying.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >The elected members of the Ukranian parliament just kicked out the President and a few of his buddies after they violently repressed protests caused by their actions. Sort of like Trump's elected republicans throwing out President Hillary and a few of her buddies, after weeks of protests by Tea Partiers who disagreed with what the actually elected government was doing and didn't want to wait 4 years for the next elections... >Stepping in and annexing part of a country because your preferred candidate is no longer in power, on the other hand, is a huge affront to it Better make it: because pro-fascists (literary: nazi sympathizers) are now in power after a coup, and they don't particularly like the Russian-ethnic population in their own country.
  - makomk 10y ago
    More like the Republicans and Democrats throwing out President Hillary and a few of her buddies for having Tea Party protestors shot. Also, the evidence for the Ukranian leadership being pro-Nazi fascists who hate ethnic Russians looked pretty weak and more like Russian propaganda last time I checked.
- rorykoehler 10y ago
  I'm not a huge fan of Russian politics or US politics for that matter. That said when I read comments like yours I can only think of how you would feel if Russia had turned up in the US with war planes during the occupy demos?