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To recap: - there might have been more interest in the early English kings. - 11th c England would be darker to history, because there wouldn't be a Doomsday
by beschizza 10y ago
To recap:
- there might have been more interest in the early English kings.
- 11th c England would be darker to history, because there wouldn't be a Doomsday Book.
- Harold II would have a great-king reputation for beating Tostig, Hardrada and William.
- England would have remained politically chaotic, including ...
- A likely civil war between Harold II and his own relatives.
Not addressed:
- Changes to English society and life. Would feudalism have been imported anyway?
- No diaspora of English nobility, many of whom left rather than become subject to Normans
Paul Kingsnorth's novel The Wake is an intriguing historical novel imagining how the Norman conquest affected everyday English folk.
- kirian 10y ago"No diaspora of English nobility, many of whom left rather than become subject to Normans" - do you have any other links or more information about this comment, i.e. which nobles and where did they go? I'm curious to find out more as was not aware of this aspect. Thanks
- berntb 10y agoWell, you got an influx to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard "Composed primarily of Scandinavians for the first 100 years, the guard began to see increasing numbers of Anglo-Saxons after the successful invasion of England by the Normans. [..] the Guard was commonly called the Englinbarrangoi (Anglo-Varangians) [after a point]" (That is all I really read about that subject.)
- ZanyProgrammer 10y agoThough I seriously don't think that not having English Varangians would've changed the course of Byzantine History-Manizkert, the Crusades, and lots of infighting and civil wars would've probably still happened. Manzikert was only 5 years in the future.
- berntb 10y agoI was answering a question about where the Anglo Saxon nobility went after 1066. I didn't touch the main subject of this discussion (how history would have been different). Edit: But please expand on the subject, as if I had meant that. It would be interesting. :-)
- berntb 10y agoWell, thinking about this a bit more... you could argue that my position is really simplified. Christianity wasn't that nice either. Exterminating all competing religions (Asatru, Catharism, South American religions etc) and probably even worse pogroms than the Muslim world, etc.
- phillc73 10y agoHarold's mother, Gytha, left England with other prominent nobles. I seemed to recall her going to Flanders, Wikipedia (that credible source) suggests somewhere in Scandinavia instead.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gytha_Thorkelsd%C3%B3ttir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gytha_Thorkelsd%C3%B3ttir Edit: Worth listening to are these BBC 4 In Our Time Podcasts. The Battle of Stamford Bridge: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011jvlt http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011jvlt The Domesday Book: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b040llvb http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b040llvb
- mc32 10y agoThere were periods prior to the Norman conquest when England was at the center of progress and learning. Also, they had enjoyed some gender equality whereas the Normans introduced feudalism and its regressive society. On the whole, though, looking back, it's remarkable that their conquest indirectly lead to where we are today --not dominated by Spanish, or Portuguese or French or Ottoman or even Chinese or Russians or anyone else who might have filled the role the English played in how the world organized and developed laws and international relations. One of the take-aways from this is that the upheaval from conquest can lead to interesting new societies.
- gadders 10y agoListening to the History Hit Podcast [1], apparently the Normans got rid of slavery which was common in the Anglo Saxon world. So that's a vote for them. [1] http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/1066-battle-of-hastings-mark-morris/ http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/1066-battle-of-hastings-mar...
- cbyto 10y agoThere's an intriguing suicide note as well which claims even more widespread effects of Norman conquest. “The Saxon/Norman origin of liberal democracy in the English-speaking world is the key to understanding why the discoveries of sociobiology have appeared to be so congenitally politically controversial.”
- ghaff 10y agoI'd also wonder if England and the British Isles more generally wouldn't have ended up more aligned with and culturally similar to the Nordics. Though there were of course already a history of ties to Southern Europe because of both the Romans and proximity.
- willvarfar 10y agoThe Normans were "nor man" were "north man". They were norwegians who had been given lands on the French coast as payoff to stop sacking Paris.
- berntb 10y agoThey had already lost the language, the religion and much of the culture. In the beginning, they burned and pillaged the churches and the cloisters. When they went to England, they had already started to build them instead. BBC had a good tv series about the Normans btw, worth seeing. I didn't know much about the Italian history, for instance. (Re losing the religion -- as a hard line atheist from the Nordic countries, I'll admit that even Christianity was a step up from what was before. :-) )
- ktRolster 10y agoI'll admit that even Christianity was a step up from what was before How can you know that? What sorts of historical documents (and practices) are you thinking of?
- berntb 10y agoIt was a religion for a violent clan society, think Somalia or something. Check e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmgang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmgang A good illustration is the Swedish "peace laws" from the 13th century -- it became forbidden to steal women, kill people in church and attack others during harvest. Consider what that means about the time before those. :-)
- willvarfar 10y ago