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Can you screen for abusive parents before they've actually had a child? (responding to the headline, not the article)

DanBC 10y ago
There's a tragic loop that some women get into, and it causes very great harm. They were abused as children. They develop mental illness, and maybe substance misuse. They fall into abusive relationships, and get pregnant. They have the first child, and come to the attention of child protective social services, who do what they can to keep the mother and child together but who eventually feel they need to remove the child. The woman goes into grief, which makes the mental illness and substance misuse worse, which increases the risk of further pregnancy. She's already known the child safeguarding, and they get involved again, and they remove that child. This cycle can happen many times. Some family lawyers report dealing with mothers who've had eight children taken. So, for some children, we know the mother needs intensive support and help, and is not getting it from existing drug and alcohol and mental health and other services. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/25/are-we-failing-parents-whose-children-are-taken-into-care https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/25/are-we-faili... > It is now well understood that women whose children are taken from them by social services will frequently keep having babies to replace those they have lost. Subsequent babies are often each removed at birth. Some women have had four, five, six and more children removed; infants can be subject to interim care orders and removed from their mothers from the moment they are born. Some family solicitors and barristers report dealing with cases involving babies eight, nine and 10. https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/social-life-blog/2016/sep/21/parents-need-support-end-cycle-babies-taken-into-care https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/social-life-... > The removal of successive children by social workers from their parents seems to be an increasingly recognised problem. Between 2007 and 2014, more than 7,000 mothers, many of them young, were involved in repeated care cases. 14,000 children, at least. Everybody loses here. The women are obviously victims. The children taken into care are victims, because even in England the prospects for looked after children are not great. The social workers have significantly increased workload. The courts have extra expense. The spend to save figures for providing better mental health treatment and psycho-social support are impressive, but no-one wants to do it.
Mz 10y ago
Children who have been abused themselves are more likely to be abusive. But it is still a minority of them who are abusive and this does not explain why some people who were not abused as kids are abusive. Furthermore, some kids from bad homes are incredibly committed to making sure their kids get something better, the way some children of alcoholics simply will not touch a drop of alcohol. The future is unwritten. We all make choices. I would rather be asking how we can give parents more support generally and improve outcomes generally than be trying to come up with some kind of Minority Report-esque means to find people guilty of things they haven't yet done, thus may not actually do. It is possible to push people into bad behavior by putting them in a position where it doesn't matter what they do, they are presumed guilty. This is part of why things like racism and classism are such big problems.
- TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
  > trying to come up with some kind of Minority Report-esque means to find people guilty of things they haven't yet done I don't actually want to do that, I probably shouldn't have worded that comment the way I did. What I wanted to point out is that a large part of mental illness prevention would be, well, figuring out how to subject people less to situations which create it. It's probably more effective than supplements.
  - Mz 10y ago
    Mental illness has two components. Brain chemistry or health is one. Social crap is the other. The article addresses a factor in the first category. Even if someone is treated extremely well, if their brain is impaired by nutritonal deficiency or disease, they won't think right. These are both important factors and not really interchangeable. You have a valid point with regards to mistreatment being causative. But being kind does not cure nutrient deficiencies per se. Supplements can cure that piece.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
      Sure.

DanBC 10y ago

There's a tragic loop that some women get into, and it causes very great harm. They were abused as children. They develop mental illness, and maybe substance misuse. They fall into abusive relationships, and get pregnant. They have the first child, and come to the attention of child protective social services, who do what they can to keep the mother and child together but who eventually feel they need to remove the child. The woman goes into grief, which makes the mental illness and substance misuse worse, which increases the risk of further pregnancy. She's already known the child safeguarding, and they get involved again, and they remove that child. This cycle can happen many times. Some family lawyers report dealing with mothers who've had eight children taken. So, for some children, we know the mother needs intensive support and help, and is not getting it from existing drug and alcohol and mental health and other services. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/25/are-we-failing-parents-whose-children-are-taken-into-care https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/25/are-we-faili... > It is now well understood that women whose children are taken from them by social services will frequently keep having babies to replace those they have lost. Subsequent babies are often each removed at birth. Some women have had four, five, six and more children removed; infants can be subject to interim care orders and removed from their mothers from the moment they are born. Some family solicitors and barristers report dealing with cases involving babies eight, nine and 10. https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/social-life-blog/2016/sep/21/parents-need-support-end-cycle-babies-taken-into-care https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/social-life-... > The removal of successive children by social workers from their parents seems to be an increasingly recognised problem. Between 2007 and 2014, more than 7,000 mothers, many of them young, were involved in repeated care cases. 14,000 children, at least. Everybody loses here. The women are obviously victims. The children taken into care are victims, because even in England the prospects for looked after children are not great. The social workers have significantly increased workload. The courts have extra expense. The spend to save figures for providing better mental health treatment and psycho-social support are impressive, but no-one wants to do it.

Mz 10y ago

Children who have been abused themselves are more likely to be abusive. But it is still a minority of them who are abusive and this does not explain why some people who were not abused as kids are abusive. Furthermore, some kids from bad homes are incredibly committed to making sure their kids get something better, the way some children of alcoholics simply will not touch a drop of alcohol. The future is unwritten. We all make choices. I would rather be asking how we can give parents more support generally and improve outcomes generally than be trying to come up with some kind of Minority Report-esque means to find people guilty of things they haven't yet done, thus may not actually do. It is possible to push people into bad behavior by putting them in a position where it doesn't matter what they do, they are presumed guilty. This is part of why things like racism and classism are such big problems.

TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
> trying to come up with some kind of Minority Report-esque means to find people guilty of things they haven't yet done I don't actually want to do that, I probably shouldn't have worded that comment the way I did. What I wanted to point out is that a large part of mental illness prevention would be, well, figuring out how to subject people less to situations which create it. It's probably more effective than supplements.
- Mz 10y ago
  Mental illness has two components. Brain chemistry or health is one. Social crap is the other. The article addresses a factor in the first category. Even if someone is treated extremely well, if their brain is impaired by nutritonal deficiency or disease, they won't think right. These are both important factors and not really interchangeable. You have a valid point with regards to mistreatment being causative. But being kind does not cure nutrient deficiencies per se. Supplements can cure that piece.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
    Sure.