7 ms·

TSA to download your iTunes?

82 points by pquerna 16y ago

rit 16y ago
The TSA has posted an official reply to this: That's the Customs and Border Control's Job not ours. You can tell the difference because their uniform is NAVY blue and ours is more of a ROYAL blue. (I'm paraphrasing here but only barely. THEY ACTUALLY POINT OUT THE UNIFORM COLOR DIFF). I wish/hope this was/is a joke: http://www.tsa.gov/blog/2010/01/can-tsa-copy-your-laptop-hard-drive-and.html http://www.tsa.gov/blog/2010/01/can-tsa-copy-your-laptop-har...
- milkshakes 16y ago
  As much as I hate to agree with him ( http://reason.com/blog/2010/01/19/tsa-pays-blogger-to-mock-peopl http://reason.com/blog/2010/01/19/tsa-pays-blogger-to-mock-p... ), in this case "Blogger Bob" has a point. It was customs, and not DHS who actually searched the laptop. The court case: http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=s_d_tex_border_search_of_computer_for_ch http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=s...
  - Sukotto 16y ago
    Speaking as a fairly frequent traveler here... In my mind, there are two sets of uniformed people at the airport. "Airline worker" (gate agent, skycap, pilots, etc) who are there to help me.... and "TSA" (Anyone with a badge, possibly a gun, and the ability to basically do whatever the hell they want) who are there to make life demeaning. It doesn't matter to me that the dark blue person is Homeland Security, the pale blue person is Customs, and the in-between blue one is Immigration. They are all equally "the man" and equally capable putting me on the "fuck that guy" list. Intellectually I understand that many of them perform a valuable service. Emotionally I fear (and by extension: hate) them and have grown to dread traveling.
    - potatolicious 16y ago
      CBP is a different sort of dickheadedness than TSA. TSA: Undertrained goons hopped up on terrorism paranoia. Will make your life absolutely miserable if given the prompt to do so (e.g., a tiny contraband item in your carry-on). Can't do too much to make your life miserable outside of missing your flight. CBP: Will. Fuck. You. Up. As a non-American working in the US, I fear the CBP like the motherfucking gestapo. Each agent wields an insane amount of power to alter one's legal status in the USA, and they never hesitate to express this power to you. Unlike the TSA agents, who get no respect from even their employer, CBP goons are given a huge amount of unquestionable leeway in their jobs. I've seen TSA workers cite regulation after regulation to make a traveler's life hell - but they've always been professional at least on the surface. I've seen CBP agents be blatantly racist, insulting, and grossly unprofessional and conduct themselves in ways unbecoming of a human being, much less a government representative. And there's not a damn thing that can be done.
      - nfnaaron 16y ago
        I used to drive from Seattle to Vancouver for the weekend a few times a year, in the eighties, back when terrorism was something that happened on page six. Driving in to Canada, their border guards were always pleasant, smiling and welcoming. They made me feel like they wanted me to visit. Driving back to the US, our border guards seemed to feel like I was a criminal. I felt unwelcome in my own country. I felt "wanted." I actually had to sit on the Group W bench once. The guard asked me a question, and I didn't hear him correctly. So I said "what?" I was polite (knowing who I was talking to). "Out of the car." And they searched my car. Because I said "what?"
      - jrockway 16y ago
        I'm a US citizen, and my experience has been the opposite. Of course, US Immigration/Customs is not nearly as nice as immigration in other countries, but that's to be expected. (When I visit Norway and Denmark, the immigration people actually smile at you. When I visited Germany, the immigration officer actually laughed at something I said. It's like they are real people or something!)
  - wtn 16y ago
    Customs is part of DHS.
    - milkshakes 16y ago
      Touché. Well, at least I can go back to hating blogger bob again
      - jrockway 16y ago
        Blogger Bob works for the TSA, which is a sibling of Customs. The common parent is the DHS.
  - rit 16y ago
    I was more mortified at the tone in which this was posted. Something about it seemed far too carefree and nonchalant, as if the most important thing is quibbling over the subtle shade of blue in their uniforms. These being the people who complained so much people didn't take them seriously that they now get fake cop badges and uniforms.
    - Vivtek 16y ago
      You haven't read the TSA's blog much, I take it? It's all carefree and nonchalant. Nothing to see here, move along. The comment section can be entertaining, though.
jrockway 16y ago
This is why I travel with a netbook that has full-disk encryption. If the government wants my laptop, they can have it for as long as they want. $300, whatever. If they want to compel disclosure of the passphrase, though, that's not as easy. Then judges and the Constitution get involved. What I've learned from reading cases (and watching Law & Order, heh) is that if the police have evidence against you, it's easier for them to get what they want from the courts. "We already saw the child porn, we just want to check for more." If all they have is a disk they can't read, it's going to be hard to get any judge to compel you to produce the key, especially if they can't prove you have the key. (And, in the US anyway, there is some precedent that you can't be compelled to produce the key anyway.) The government wants more power, but the people have the power to take it away. It's just a checkbox away in your favorite OS's installer. (Well, in Debian anyway.) With talk of 20 year prison sentences for ordering manga from Japan or talking to people on Myspace, I think it's pretty insane to not encrypt your disks. Who knows what someone else will think is illegal? I would rather not find out.
- mshafrir 16y ago
  Do you use http://www.truecrypt.org/ http://www.truecrypt.org/ ?
  - jrockway 16y ago
    No, dm_mapper/LUKS. But actually, I do have a Windows 7 machine, and am TrueCrypt-ing that right now. (I had forgotten about that until you mentioned it, and BitLocker is $200 I don't want to pay.) So far, seems pretty nice. You can never be 100% sure about encryption software, but since I haven't read about the government breaking any crypto implementations and sending anyone to prison, it is probably Good Enough. I don't worry too much because I don't think I am doing anything illegal. But it's still nice to avoid people rummaging through your stuff.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Make sure you use an adequate password with that encryption. It amazes me how many people use, say, an 8-10 character password with just lower case (and maybe numbers). :)
anigbrowl 16y ago
From the article: [4th amendment] protections do not disappear merely because one happens to be at a real - or imaginary - border. Ah, but they do. It's called the 'border search exception' and it has been consistently upheld by courts, based largely on the 5th act of Congress passed in 1789 which set up the US Customs Service. Not only are searches of laptops and storage devices considered reasonable in this context, but so is opening mail and just about anything short of a strip search. This has been argued over on a variety of grounds quite recently but the courts have stood firm on it. So like it or not, it's better to avoid carrying any storage device containing data that might be construed as suspicious.
- jrockway 16y ago
  Indeed. Just send it via the Internet, where packets are not opened and inspected before entering the country. Sometimes I think that government policies are implemented only to make people feel powerful. We can search your laptop! OK, but I can just send the data to my home computer via the Internet, and just carry my wiped laptop across the border.
  - milkshakes 16y ago
    You're joking right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_America_Act_of_2007#Data_monitoring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_America_Act_of_2007#Dat...
    - jrockway 16y ago
      But they haven't broken AES or the key exchange protocols. Nobody sends important data across the Internet unencrypted.
      - milkshakes 16y ago
        DJB had some interesting thoughts on AES and its vulnerability to timing based attacks, here: http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf While network latencies would definitely make this type of attack more challenging to implement, AES is not invincible. And that's just the stuff we hear about :)
hannibalhorn 16y ago
It's worth nothing that CBP cannot compel you to give them your password(s), and can't really refuse entry to a US citizen, so as long as you encrypt everything your laptop should be secure. They can of course confiscate the machine to image it - and you may not get it back while it's still worth anything - but, what can you do. The iPhone is trickier, mAdvLock is the only thing I know of that would most likely work even if it was confiscated.
piguy314 16y ago
Nobody disputes, or should dispute, the right of a sovereign nation to perform invasive searches at international borders. What is most serious and egregious in the DHS/CBP behavior is the slippery slope of trying to change the definition of an international border. The 4th amendment in no way protects you from a border search, but saying that 100 miles inside the country is an international border is ludicrous.

82 points by pquerna 16y ago

rit 16y ago

The TSA has posted an official reply to this: That's the Customs and Border Control's Job not ours. You can tell the difference because their uniform is NAVY blue and ours is more of a ROYAL blue. (I'm paraphrasing here but only barely. THEY ACTUALLY POINT OUT THE UNIFORM COLOR DIFF). I wish/hope this was/is a joke: http://www.tsa.gov/blog/2010/01/can-tsa-copy-your-laptop-hard-drive-and.html http://www.tsa.gov/blog/2010/01/can-tsa-copy-your-laptop-har...

milkshakes 16y ago
As much as I hate to agree with him ( http://reason.com/blog/2010/01/19/tsa-pays-blogger-to-mock-peopl http://reason.com/blog/2010/01/19/tsa-pays-blogger-to-mock-p... ), in this case "Blogger Bob" has a point. It was customs, and not DHS who actually searched the laptop. The court case: http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=s_d_tex_border_search_of_computer_for_ch http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=s...
- Sukotto 16y ago
  Speaking as a fairly frequent traveler here... In my mind, there are two sets of uniformed people at the airport. "Airline worker" (gate agent, skycap, pilots, etc) who are there to help me.... and "TSA" (Anyone with a badge, possibly a gun, and the ability to basically do whatever the hell they want) who are there to make life demeaning. It doesn't matter to me that the dark blue person is Homeland Security, the pale blue person is Customs, and the in-between blue one is Immigration. They are all equally "the man" and equally capable putting me on the "fuck that guy" list. Intellectually I understand that many of them perform a valuable service. Emotionally I fear (and by extension: hate) them and have grown to dread traveling.
  - potatolicious 16y ago
    CBP is a different sort of dickheadedness than TSA. TSA: Undertrained goons hopped up on terrorism paranoia. Will make your life absolutely miserable if given the prompt to do so (e.g., a tiny contraband item in your carry-on). Can't do too much to make your life miserable outside of missing your flight. CBP: Will. Fuck. You. Up. As a non-American working in the US, I fear the CBP like the motherfucking gestapo. Each agent wields an insane amount of power to alter one's legal status in the USA, and they never hesitate to express this power to you. Unlike the TSA agents, who get no respect from even their employer, CBP goons are given a huge amount of unquestionable leeway in their jobs. I've seen TSA workers cite regulation after regulation to make a traveler's life hell - but they've always been professional at least on the surface. I've seen CBP agents be blatantly racist, insulting, and grossly unprofessional and conduct themselves in ways unbecoming of a human being, much less a government representative. And there's not a damn thing that can be done.
    - nfnaaron 16y ago
      I used to drive from Seattle to Vancouver for the weekend a few times a year, in the eighties, back when terrorism was something that happened on page six. Driving in to Canada, their border guards were always pleasant, smiling and welcoming. They made me feel like they wanted me to visit. Driving back to the US, our border guards seemed to feel like I was a criminal. I felt unwelcome in my own country. I felt "wanted." I actually had to sit on the Group W bench once. The guard asked me a question, and I didn't hear him correctly. So I said "what?" I was polite (knowing who I was talking to). "Out of the car." And they searched my car. Because I said "what?"
    - jrockway 16y ago
      I'm a US citizen, and my experience has been the opposite. Of course, US Immigration/Customs is not nearly as nice as immigration in other countries, but that's to be expected. (When I visit Norway and Denmark, the immigration people actually smile at you. When I visited Germany, the immigration officer actually laughed at something I said. It's like they are real people or something!)
- wtn 16y ago
  Customs is part of DHS.
  - milkshakes 16y ago
    Touché. Well, at least I can go back to hating blogger bob again
    - jrockway 16y ago
      Blogger Bob works for the TSA, which is a sibling of Customs. The common parent is the DHS.
- rit 16y ago
  I was more mortified at the tone in which this was posted. Something about it seemed far too carefree and nonchalant, as if the most important thing is quibbling over the subtle shade of blue in their uniforms. These being the people who complained so much people didn't take them seriously that they now get fake cop badges and uniforms.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    You haven't read the TSA's blog much, I take it? It's all carefree and nonchalant. Nothing to see here, move along. The comment section can be entertaining, though.

jrockway 16y ago

This is why I travel with a netbook that has full-disk encryption. If the government wants my laptop, they can have it for as long as they want. $300, whatever. If they want to compel disclosure of the passphrase, though, that's not as easy. Then judges and the Constitution get involved. What I've learned from reading cases (and watching Law & Order, heh) is that if the police have evidence against you, it's easier for them to get what they want from the courts. "We already saw the child porn, we just want to check for more." If all they have is a disk they can't read, it's going to be hard to get any judge to compel you to produce the key, especially if they can't prove you have the key. (And, in the US anyway, there is some precedent that you can't be compelled to produce the key anyway.) The government wants more power, but the people have the power to take it away. It's just a checkbox away in your favorite OS's installer. (Well, in Debian anyway.) With talk of 20 year prison sentences for ordering manga from Japan or talking to people on Myspace, I think it's pretty insane to not encrypt your disks. Who knows what someone else will think is illegal? I would rather not find out.

mshafrir 16y ago
Do you use http://www.truecrypt.org/ http://www.truecrypt.org/ ?
- jrockway 16y ago
  No, dm_mapper/LUKS. But actually, I do have a Windows 7 machine, and am TrueCrypt-ing that right now. (I had forgotten about that until you mentioned it, and BitLocker is $200 I don't want to pay.) So far, seems pretty nice. You can never be 100% sure about encryption software, but since I haven't read about the government breaking any crypto implementations and sending anyone to prison, it is probably Good Enough. I don't worry too much because I don't think I am doing anything illegal. But it's still nice to avoid people rummaging through your stuff.
ErrantX 16y ago
Make sure you use an adequate password with that encryption. It amazes me how many people use, say, an 8-10 character password with just lower case (and maybe numbers). :)

anigbrowl 16y ago

From the article: [4th amendment] protections do not disappear merely because one happens to be at a real - or imaginary - border. Ah, but they do. It's called the 'border search exception' and it has been consistently upheld by courts, based largely on the 5th act of Congress passed in 1789 which set up the US Customs Service. Not only are searches of laptops and storage devices considered reasonable in this context, but so is opening mail and just about anything short of a strip search. This has been argued over on a variety of grounds quite recently but the courts have stood firm on it. So like it or not, it's better to avoid carrying any storage device containing data that might be construed as suspicious.

jrockway 16y ago
Indeed. Just send it via the Internet, where packets are not opened and inspected before entering the country. Sometimes I think that government policies are implemented only to make people feel powerful. We can search your laptop! OK, but I can just send the data to my home computer via the Internet, and just carry my wiped laptop across the border.
- milkshakes 16y ago
  You're joking right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_America_Act_of_2007#Data_monitoring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_America_Act_of_2007#Dat...
  - jrockway 16y ago
    But they haven't broken AES or the key exchange protocols. Nobody sends important data across the Internet unencrypted.
    - milkshakes 16y ago
      DJB had some interesting thoughts on AES and its vulnerability to timing based attacks, here: http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf While network latencies would definitely make this type of attack more challenging to implement, AES is not invincible. And that's just the stuff we hear about :)

hannibalhorn 16y ago

It's worth nothing that CBP cannot compel you to give them your password(s), and can't really refuse entry to a US citizen, so as long as you encrypt everything your laptop should be secure. They can of course confiscate the machine to image it - and you may not get it back while it's still worth anything - but, what can you do. The iPhone is trickier, mAdvLock is the only thing I know of that would most likely work even if it was confiscated.

piguy314 16y ago

Nobody disputes, or should dispute, the right of a sovereign nation to perform invasive searches at international borders. What is most serious and egregious in the DHS/CBP behavior is the slippery slope of trying to change the definition of an international border. The 4th amendment in no way protects you from a border search, but saying that 100 miles inside the country is an international border is ludicrous.