12 ms·

I've tried being generous (and still donate, probably more than all my coworkers together), and I still get pissed upon by leftists. Talk about empathy. I live

by tajen 10y ago

I've tried being generous (and still donate, probably more than all my coworkers together), and I still get pissed upon by leftists. Talk about empathy. I live in France, my parents weren't even that rich, but we strive to work hard. Being motivated by good marks at school makes you bullied because you're a krelboyne. At work, as soon as colleagues learn you've been to a private high school and top college (both of which cost <$100/month and have active policies for lower income families), people come up to you and explain all the reasons why students from good schools aren't so good at work ("They don't have the grit", they say, "They aren't street-smart" – Happened to me 4 days ago again). A lot of citizen in France think it's fine to be jealous to someone because he was good at school, comes from a good background or is Christian. It would be ok if there weren't actual discrimination from people who want to offset the supposedly "easy life" you've had: The boss who bullied me in plain sight of everyone also was the only boss who had a shorter degree than I had. I've donated thousands to charities. I've volunteered for immigrants, kids of immigrants, I've volunteered in detention centers, I've volunteered in free events aimed at lower-income families, and with a team we went to help an orphanage abroad. I've given more than a thousand hours of volunteering in 5 years, in parallel to my studies and work. I never expected a "thank you". But a little consideration and respect from the leftists would do. But my life is still considered like a result of sheer luck, not a result of my hard work. The problem isn't the poor: They do need help. The problem is the leftists who give lessons. There's a non-stop cliche that, since you're rich, you're an asshole. Even if you are generous and litteraly more generous than them, they won't stop the hate. This article is one of them, generalizing about "riches are assholes". All in all, living in France, taxes are supposed to provide support for the poor. I'm tempted to leave it at that and stop donating, because I need to focus on my life now (no gf, no kids yet). But somehow I keep donating.

briandear 10y ago
I also live in France and I couldn't agree more. There's an implicit (and often explicit) hatred (on the left) of those that are more financially successful. There is also a social distrust of entrepreneurship and any activities that are higher risk, higher reward. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered."
- galfarragem 10y ago
  That's true on all left skewed countries, not just France. Southern Europe countries are a good example of such distortions.
  - dmichulke 10y ago
    Germany is just the same (YMMV) A possibly noteworthy difference is that there are no 'superior' schools or universities in Germany, at least I never heard of it. Of course, there are differences but they will rarely decide who's going to get the job.
    - bragh 10y ago
      Is it true? From what I heard, people with degrees from Fachhochschule are very much looked down upon. Also, anyone with a degree feels the need to add it as a title to any kind of correspondence.
      - candiodari 10y ago
        Fachhochschule is a college, somewhere between postsecondary vocational training and a bachelor degree. You might call the degrees you get there "applied bachelors", and yes, they're "less" than "academic bachelors". It's like high school diploma < postsecondary vocational training < applied bachelor < academic bachelor < master < phd < postdoc < special professor < normal professor. Pretty much every level is looked down upon by those above it.
      - lorenzhs 10y ago
        Well, Fachhochschule and University are both free, and admission is based on merit, sometimes with bonus points for civic / volunteer engagement. However, there is a correlation between parents' financial and social standing and childrens' success in school. The German school system is quite complex to explain (partially because we have 16 independent ones, one for each state), and efforts are being undertaken to help students from disadvantaged families succeed, but more work is needed to close the gap. Most of the people with fancy degrees that I know don't give a damn about the title. It might be more pronunced in older generations. That's just my sample point, though.
trabant00 10y ago
I have a somewhat similar background. When I was young (<18) I used to feel guilty from time to time. I mean there is no denying that I got a head start by being in a family that could support me in school, pressure me into getting an eduction, etc. But after a while I started noticing a pattern. The people that are into shaming me are the ones that never do anything, never get involved into anything, all they do is attack others to feel better about their lack of results. Somebody who wants to change the world for the better sees an asset in me. I am smart, educated, have financial stability, I have resources to help others and it pays to have me working by their side. So now in my middle age I laugh at these original sin proponents. White guilt, middle class guilt, born into money, cis, heterosexual, etc, just endless emotional bullshit by drama queens who never accomplished anything. I work and produce results. They just wanna tear down everything that makes them feel weak without having anything to replace it with. The freaking internet would stop without people like me and they would have no facebook and salon to bitch on.
- scalio 10y ago
  The internet's infrastructure is a good example of relatively rich people doing good for everybody. Our digital world is built on tech developed largely for free by people rich enough to be able to afford this unpaid labour. Nobody ever thanks them, yet they go on because work, not complaint, is the only way to make an actual difference. Keep laughing! It's the only weapon against malevolent idiocy.
  - uola 10y ago
    > Our digital world is built on tech developed largely for free by people rich enough to be able to afford this unpaid labour. Citation needed. As far as I know most Internet infrastructure was developed by government funded or commercial entities.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - shshhdhs 10y ago
titzer 10y ago
> I never expected a "thank you". But a little consideration and respect from the leftists would do. Kudos. Have you ever done something nice that you haven't told anyone about? (and don't interpret that as a personal attack, it's a serious question.)
- tajen 10y ago
  I almost never talk about all of this. Except the detention centers, it's so interesting and emotional that I often tell the stories. That's where I learnt about Christmas Island.
YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
It makes sense that you feel frustrated by criticism, but you should recognise the fact that if you were poor you'd feel frustrated also. The point of there being an imbalance of opportunity ("privilege" and lack thereof) is that some people benefit from it and others are taken advantage of. It's only reasonable to expect that the ones who are taken advantage of will feel frustrated, regardless of any acts of redress offered as a compensation from those who benefit form the imbalance. >> The problem isn't the poor: They do need help. I don't think that's the problem. I think the real problem is that in a society that values material wealth above all else, everybody wants to have more of it in order to be valued as a human being. So the poor want to become rich and the rich want to become richer. You can't fix that with donations, unless you and everyone else who is some level of rich share your entire fortunes with everyone else... or unless the entire financial system changes radically and fundamentally (which will happen around the same time as pigs grow wings and fly away). >> The boss who bullied me in plain sight of everyone I mean, I don't think you sound that rich even (not 30+ meter sailing yacht rich, say). It is definitely unacceptable for people to treat you badly, for whatever reason, not to mention your income. On the other hand, if you were that rich you wouldn't have to put up with them in the first place, so that's doubly wrong.
- tajen 10y ago
  > I think the real problem is that in a society that values material wealth above all else Not sure that's true. There are tremendous movements of people valuing love over money. What we need is love. And since, personally, I'm unhappy and I'm constantly downplayed by a lot of people and I'm given a feeling of guilt (see: feminism, for example), then I'm obliged focus on fighting for my right to belong to society instead of fighting for others' right to belong to society. I agree with the rest of your comments, and thank you for that kind and mindful last paragraph.
enraged_camel 10y ago
>>There's a non-stop cliche that, since you're rich, you're an asshole. I don't know how rich you are exactly, but in my experience, beyond a certain threshold (noticeable among upper-middle class and above), there is a strong positive correlation between wealth and assholeness - or at least traits we generally associate with assholeness. The correlation is indirect, though. Wealth is correlated with income, which is correlated with rank (e.g. higher in the org = higher salary), which in turn is correlated with strength of personality. Assholes tend to push others aside (and take credit for everything) to get promoted, and those at the top tend to demonstrate sociopathic tendencies such as yelling at or otherwise abusing underlings, and making rules and policies that fuck over others. There are of course exceptions, but there is little doubt in my mind that the correlation is real.
- tajen 10y ago
  > There is a strong positive correlation between wealth and assholeness. Then what's in it for me, rich person (In the hundreds of thousands of savings at 35, starting from $500 at 22), to give back or be kind? Nothing, since you'll keep assuming I'm an asshole by default. That's the experience I give above: People who defend poor people are real assholes to richer ones, independently of their generosity or personal values. The only way you like a rich person is when they're not rich (even then you'll keep beating them until they're dead, because of their background). It's the same mechanics at play that skews incentives when people live under prejudices, as when a racist says "All black people are thieves". Then all blacks are incentivized to steal, because the good person won't be recognized. Even if, in a parallel world, thieve proportions were true in statistics, it would still be wrong, because we can't afford leaving aside the hundreds of thousands of honest black people. We must give everyone a chance and treat them with equality. Saying "all black people are thieves, there are exceptions but there's a strong correlation" is an unfair generalization, just as saying "There is a strong positive correlation between wealth and assholeness [...] there are of course exceptions, but there is little doubt that the correlation is real". Which are... the exact words you've said.
  - bcook 10y ago
    > Then what's in it for me, rich person, to give back or be kind? Why must kindness be justified? "Kindness is it's own reward", no?
YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
>> a private high school and top college (both of which cost <$100/month and have active policies for lower income families) That's... very unfair. Education is one of those things that exemplify privilege, because it's just so unequal, and dependent on income. Offering positions to a top school to a few kids from poor neibhroughoods doesn't begin to address the fact that the vast majority of those positions are offered to kids with rich parents, often without any regard to their academic achievements. Where academic achievement is taken into account, the fact is often that the kids from the richer backgrounds are in a much better position to take advantage of the opportunity, because of their higher income. For a personal example: I went to a private school, one of the "good" schools in my country of birth (Greece). This was thanks to my father's political connections, rather than his income. Pretty much all of my fellow students could afford extra-school teaching sessions, to help them with their grades. I didn't get any, because my father couldn't afford them, so my grades sucked throughout school. This was compounded by the fact that many of my teachers also offered private tutoring, which tended to significantly boost the grades of the pupils who chose to take advantage of it. There is an obvious conflict of interest in having a private tutor who also grades your school work, but at least my dad's connections (I think he was owed some favour from the school's owner) ensured that I managed to finish school. I'm finishing a Master's now and preparing for a PhD, so I'm not complaining, I can do well in my life. Still, I have many friends from similar, or poorer backgrounds who didn't have a dad with good connections and had it much harder than myself. There's also the fact that kids from poorer backgrounds tend to suffer from problems that never trouble the richer kids. For example, all my friends from out of school did "drugs"- I mean they did stuff like sniff gasoline etc. Needless to say this did not help their job prospects much. Is that income dependent- you betcha my rich fellow students, if they ever did drugs, would get the good stuff, not glue and gasoline. Again, I dont' think that's something you can fix with donations. The problem is that a very large number of kids from poor families simplly fail to find their way in higher education, or employment, that matches their level of ability and get into situations that the rich kids simply never find themselves in. Some get lucky and benefit from support programmes, but the majority do not. That is a great injustice and it makes sense that people are frustrated about it. And, again, while donations and philanthropy help, things will not change significantly unless we find some fundamental way to address inequality- which is very unlikely.
besselheim 10y ago
Yet, aren't you also applying similar stereotypes to "leftists" here? Not everyone with a left-wing political outlook has the attitude you have described.
MicroBerto 10y ago
It might be time to redefine "leftist" at this point. What is so "left" about being intolerant? To me it seems more like class warfare, and sides are being chosen amongst the elites, the ultra poor, and those of us stuck in the middle. You, unfortunately seem to them like an elite but behave like a traditional conservative, which gets you nothing but hatred from all angles. I'm sorry about this and hope you keep doing and preaching what you believe in.
- xupybd 10y ago
  There are elements in the far left, very outspoken elements that are very intolerant. It's not something that is inherently left, but it's become the public face of the left to all of those who have different views. The right has similar issues, you mention you are right and you get pegged with the climate change deniers and everyone assumes you think the poor are poor because they are lazy. This is not what most in the right think but it is what gets the most press.
- ionised 10y ago
  > What is so "left" about being intolerant? Nothing. It's utterly meaningless and just a way to define an 'us' and a 'them'.
ionised 10y ago
Maybe stop labelling people 'leftists' and thinking of the world in a black and white, tribal, left versus right 'us versus them' way. That doesn't help anybody.

by tajen 10y ago

briandear 10y ago

I also live in France and I couldn't agree more. There's an implicit (and often explicit) hatred (on the left) of those that are more financially successful. There is also a social distrust of entrepreneurship and any activities that are higher risk, higher reward. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered."

galfarragem 10y ago
That's true on all left skewed countries, not just France. Southern Europe countries are a good example of such distortions.
- dmichulke 10y ago
  Germany is just the same (YMMV) A possibly noteworthy difference is that there are no 'superior' schools or universities in Germany, at least I never heard of it. Of course, there are differences but they will rarely decide who's going to get the job.
  - bragh 10y ago
    Is it true? From what I heard, people with degrees from Fachhochschule are very much looked down upon. Also, anyone with a degree feels the need to add it as a title to any kind of correspondence.
    - candiodari 10y ago
      Fachhochschule is a college, somewhere between postsecondary vocational training and a bachelor degree. You might call the degrees you get there "applied bachelors", and yes, they're "less" than "academic bachelors". It's like high school diploma < postsecondary vocational training < applied bachelor < academic bachelor < master < phd < postdoc < special professor < normal professor. Pretty much every level is looked down upon by those above it.
    - lorenzhs 10y ago
      Well, Fachhochschule and University are both free, and admission is based on merit, sometimes with bonus points for civic / volunteer engagement. However, there is a correlation between parents' financial and social standing and childrens' success in school. The German school system is quite complex to explain (partially because we have 16 independent ones, one for each state), and efforts are being undertaken to help students from disadvantaged families succeed, but more work is needed to close the gap. Most of the people with fancy degrees that I know don't give a damn about the title. It might be more pronunced in older generations. That's just my sample point, though.

trabant00 10y ago

I have a somewhat similar background. When I was young (<18) I used to feel guilty from time to time. I mean there is no denying that I got a head start by being in a family that could support me in school, pressure me into getting an eduction, etc. But after a while I started noticing a pattern. The people that are into shaming me are the ones that never do anything, never get involved into anything, all they do is attack others to feel better about their lack of results. Somebody who wants to change the world for the better sees an asset in me. I am smart, educated, have financial stability, I have resources to help others and it pays to have me working by their side. So now in my middle age I laugh at these original sin proponents. White guilt, middle class guilt, born into money, cis, heterosexual, etc, just endless emotional bullshit by drama queens who never accomplished anything. I work and produce results. They just wanna tear down everything that makes them feel weak without having anything to replace it with. The freaking internet would stop without people like me and they would have no facebook and salon to bitch on.

scalio 10y ago
The internet's infrastructure is a good example of relatively rich people doing good for everybody. Our digital world is built on tech developed largely for free by people rich enough to be able to afford this unpaid labour. Nobody ever thanks them, yet they go on because work, not complaint, is the only way to make an actual difference. Keep laughing! It's the only weapon against malevolent idiocy.
- uola 10y ago
  > Our digital world is built on tech developed largely for free by people rich enough to be able to afford this unpaid labour. Citation needed. As far as I know most Internet infrastructure was developed by government funded or commercial entities.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - shshhdhs 10y ago

titzer 10y ago

> I never expected a "thank you". But a little consideration and respect from the leftists would do. Kudos. Have you ever done something nice that you haven't told anyone about? (and don't interpret that as a personal attack, it's a serious question.)

tajen 10y ago
I almost never talk about all of this. Except the detention centers, it's so interesting and emotional that I often tell the stories. That's where I learnt about Christmas Island.

YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago

It makes sense that you feel frustrated by criticism, but you should recognise the fact that if you were poor you'd feel frustrated also. The point of there being an imbalance of opportunity ("privilege" and lack thereof) is that some people benefit from it and others are taken advantage of. It's only reasonable to expect that the ones who are taken advantage of will feel frustrated, regardless of any acts of redress offered as a compensation from those who benefit form the imbalance. >> The problem isn't the poor: They do need help. I don't think that's the problem. I think the real problem is that in a society that values material wealth above all else, everybody wants to have more of it in order to be valued as a human being. So the poor want to become rich and the rich want to become richer. You can't fix that with donations, unless you and everyone else who is some level of rich share your entire fortunes with everyone else... or unless the entire financial system changes radically and fundamentally (which will happen around the same time as pigs grow wings and fly away). >> The boss who bullied me in plain sight of everyone I mean, I don't think you sound that rich even (not 30+ meter sailing yacht rich, say). It is definitely unacceptable for people to treat you badly, for whatever reason, not to mention your income. On the other hand, if you were that rich you wouldn't have to put up with them in the first place, so that's doubly wrong.

tajen 10y ago
> I think the real problem is that in a society that values material wealth above all else Not sure that's true. There are tremendous movements of people valuing love over money. What we need is love. And since, personally, I'm unhappy and I'm constantly downplayed by a lot of people and I'm given a feeling of guilt (see: feminism, for example), then I'm obliged focus on fighting for my right to belong to society instead of fighting for others' right to belong to society. I agree with the rest of your comments, and thank you for that kind and mindful last paragraph.

enraged_camel 10y ago

>>There's a non-stop cliche that, since you're rich, you're an asshole. I don't know how rich you are exactly, but in my experience, beyond a certain threshold (noticeable among upper-middle class and above), there is a strong positive correlation between wealth and assholeness - or at least traits we generally associate with assholeness. The correlation is indirect, though. Wealth is correlated with income, which is correlated with rank (e.g. higher in the org = higher salary), which in turn is correlated with strength of personality. Assholes tend to push others aside (and take credit for everything) to get promoted, and those at the top tend to demonstrate sociopathic tendencies such as yelling at or otherwise abusing underlings, and making rules and policies that fuck over others. There are of course exceptions, but there is little doubt in my mind that the correlation is real.

tajen 10y ago
> There is a strong positive correlation between wealth and assholeness. Then what's in it for me, rich person (In the hundreds of thousands of savings at 35, starting from $500 at 22), to give back or be kind? Nothing, since you'll keep assuming I'm an asshole by default. That's the experience I give above: People who defend poor people are real assholes to richer ones, independently of their generosity or personal values. The only way you like a rich person is when they're not rich (even then you'll keep beating them until they're dead, because of their background). It's the same mechanics at play that skews incentives when people live under prejudices, as when a racist says "All black people are thieves". Then all blacks are incentivized to steal, because the good person won't be recognized. Even if, in a parallel world, thieve proportions were true in statistics, it would still be wrong, because we can't afford leaving aside the hundreds of thousands of honest black people. We must give everyone a chance and treat them with equality. Saying "all black people are thieves, there are exceptions but there's a strong correlation" is an unfair generalization, just as saying "There is a strong positive correlation between wealth and assholeness [...] there are of course exceptions, but there is little doubt that the correlation is real". Which are... the exact words you've said.
- bcook 10y ago
  > Then what's in it for me, rich person, to give back or be kind? Why must kindness be justified? "Kindness is it's own reward", no?

YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago

>> a private high school and top college (both of which cost <$100/month and have active policies for lower income families) That's... very unfair. Education is one of those things that exemplify privilege, because it's just so unequal, and dependent on income. Offering positions to a top school to a few kids from poor neibhroughoods doesn't begin to address the fact that the vast majority of those positions are offered to kids with rich parents, often without any regard to their academic achievements. Where academic achievement is taken into account, the fact is often that the kids from the richer backgrounds are in a much better position to take advantage of the opportunity, because of their higher income. For a personal example: I went to a private school, one of the "good" schools in my country of birth (Greece). This was thanks to my father's political connections, rather than his income. Pretty much all of my fellow students could afford extra-school teaching sessions, to help them with their grades. I didn't get any, because my father couldn't afford them, so my grades sucked throughout school. This was compounded by the fact that many of my teachers also offered private tutoring, which tended to significantly boost the grades of the pupils who chose to take advantage of it. There is an obvious conflict of interest in having a private tutor who also grades your school work, but at least my dad's connections (I think he was owed some favour from the school's owner) ensured that I managed to finish school. I'm finishing a Master's now and preparing for a PhD, so I'm not complaining, I can do well in my life. Still, I have many friends from similar, or poorer backgrounds who didn't have a dad with good connections and had it much harder than myself. There's also the fact that kids from poorer backgrounds tend to suffer from problems that never trouble the richer kids. For example, all my friends from out of school did "drugs"- I mean they did stuff like sniff gasoline etc. Needless to say this did not help their job prospects much. Is that income dependent- you betcha my rich fellow students, if they ever did drugs, would get the good stuff, not glue and gasoline. Again, I dont' think that's something you can fix with donations. The problem is that a very large number of kids from poor families simplly fail to find their way in higher education, or employment, that matches their level of ability and get into situations that the rich kids simply never find themselves in. Some get lucky and benefit from support programmes, but the majority do not. That is a great injustice and it makes sense that people are frustrated about it. And, again, while donations and philanthropy help, things will not change significantly unless we find some fundamental way to address inequality- which is very unlikely.

besselheim 10y ago

Yet, aren't you also applying similar stereotypes to "leftists" here? Not everyone with a left-wing political outlook has the attitude you have described.

MicroBerto 10y ago

It might be time to redefine "leftist" at this point. What is so "left" about being intolerant? To me it seems more like class warfare, and sides are being chosen amongst the elites, the ultra poor, and those of us stuck in the middle. You, unfortunately seem to them like an elite but behave like a traditional conservative, which gets you nothing but hatred from all angles. I'm sorry about this and hope you keep doing and preaching what you believe in.

xupybd 10y ago
There are elements in the far left, very outspoken elements that are very intolerant. It's not something that is inherently left, but it's become the public face of the left to all of those who have different views. The right has similar issues, you mention you are right and you get pegged with the climate change deniers and everyone assumes you think the poor are poor because they are lazy. This is not what most in the right think but it is what gets the most press.
ionised 10y ago
> What is so "left" about being intolerant? Nothing. It's utterly meaningless and just a way to define an 'us' and a 'them'.

ionised 10y ago

Maybe stop labelling people 'leftists' and thinking of the world in a black and white, tribal, left versus right 'us versus them' way. That doesn't help anybody.