6 ms·

I really wonder about the methods of this study. In my area, in the fun, dirty and gritty part of the city is where there are dive bars, vape shops and crazy l

I really wonder about the methods of this study. In my area, in the fun, dirty and gritty part of the city is where there are dive bars, vape shops and crazy little variety stores and head shops, you have to have your head on a swivel when crossing the road to not be sideswiped by some rusted out Geo or Nissan with the tailpipe being held up by a coat hanger. On the flip side, in our most affluent immediate suburb, people give you right of way constantly. Everyone stops for pedestrians, even if they had plenty of time to go anyway. I mean they are almost religious about it.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
I don't know about driving offenses, but we can quantify other harmful behaviors. The poor are far more likely than the rich to deliberately do things that harm others - rob them, engage in violence, etc. Economic motivation for crime is a possible confounder. But we can eliminate that confounder by examining crimes with no plausible economic motive: intimate partner violence, assaulting family members, rape. Poor people engage in these crimes at 4x the rates of others. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf (Another interesting fact - contra Trump - is that poor Hispanics seem far less criminal than poor whites/blacks. This also contradicts popular left wing narratives - if poverty makes poor whites/blacks beat their wives via "stressors" or other mysterious phlogiston, why are Hispanics immune?)
- jaggederest 10y ago
  > (Another interesting fact - contra Trump - is that poor Hispanics seem far less criminal than poor whites/blacks. This also contradicts popular left wing narratives - if poverty makes poor whites/blacks beat their wives via "stressors" or other mysterious phlogiston, why are Hispanics immune?) Presumably, within immediate memory they have a comparison available with "the old country" which makes a low-end existence in the US seem positively posh.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    So poor American blacks/whites rape people and beat their wives because they don't realize how nice their lifestyle is compared to the lifestyle of Mexicans in Mexico? Personally I don't find this particularly plausible.
    - jaggederest 10y ago
      No, they experience more severe alienation because they don't have significantly worse comparators to measure it against. Generation after generation of grinding (comparative) poverty vs a sense of self respect from making it to the 'land of opportunity' and working for a better life for you/your kids. Also contra Trump, this implies that the average immigrant is probably a pretty productive member of society, and thus a net economic and social benefit.
- didgeoridoo 10y ago
  The obvious (not necessarily correct) answer is religion and community enforcement of norms. No idea if this is empirically defensible; maybe you'd need to compare north vs. south (and control for about a thousand other variables) to disaggregate the root causes from the noise. I also wouldn't say that intimate partner crime, etc. has "no plausible economic motive"; the rich have far more to lose from a stint in prison, and so might be far less likely to commit these crimes. The "economic motive" is that impulse control prevents economic loss. This (again conjectural) thesis dovetails with the idea above; if it's not economic losses that scare you straight, it might be community/church pressure that does so.
  - didgeoridoo 10y ago
    (My god am I promiscuous with semicolons when I've been drinking)
    - adrianratnapala 10y ago
      Then drink; and be semi.
- projektir 10y ago
  I think you're conflating terms here. The left wing narrative is closer to saying that growing up poor in a given country is likely to generate heavy stressors. And I think this is correct, because growing up poor in a country implies that your family is very low status, which is all sorts of bad from all sorts of sides. The people immigrating to your country are probably not very low status in their country, as they had enough mobility to immigrate, OR growing up low-status in their country had different effects. I don't know enough about Hispanics to say much, but I think family structure and philosophy may be factors. There's also a difference between having no money and having a potato yard and some goats and having no money. Poor Americans often literally have nothing - no money, no food, no parents, no education, no philosophy, etc. In other places, the amount of money you have doesn't correlate so obviously, so when you immigrate, a lot of stuff sticks around, even if it's invisible in the simplistic model of money=success, especially given that immigration itself often gives you an arbitrary pay cut that may take a while to compensate. You can move to the US, and lose your certification to be a doctor because your degree doesn't count in the US, but that doesn't make everything leading up to you becoming a doctor magically evaporate.
  - grzm 10y ago
    > The people immigrating to your country are probably not very low status in their country, as they had enough mobility to immigrate, OR growing up low-status in their country had different effects. Another possibility that comes to mind is that there is some difference between those who migrate and those who remain in the same class. Just another point. I'm not taking or implying any position on any of these.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    Your idea that poor Americans "literally have nothing" is simply incorrect. Poor Americans have obesity-inducing quantities of food, good quality housing [1] and high quality free education (teachers actually show up!!!). You could be right about "no parents, no philosophy" - I don't have data on this. Is it the really the left wing position, that family structure (traditional family vs single mother) and philosophy (work hard, go to church vs feel envy of the neighbors) are the secrets to success? Having a bad work ethic and feeling envy towards those with more than you will likely cause bad behavior, and that bad behavior causes bad outcomes? But a person with a good philosophy (e.g. your doctor who lost certification) will escape poverty that they are thrust into by chance? I'd love to know what left wing sources you are reading. To me these claims sound like something George Bush or Mitt Romney would say, and then get crucified by the media for saying. [1] This document provides information on virtually any specific aspect of housing you want to know, sliced by income level. E.g. # rooms/person, sagging roof, plumbing issues, washer/dryer/AC/kitchen, etc. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf
- sgt101 10y ago
  I believe that poor people are more likely to receive very long sentances in the US justice system. This is because if a middle class kid commits a crime their family will hire a lawyer and ensure proper process at least. So it seems to me that in the USA poverty is a predictor for disrupted family life, it is more likely that your mum or dad will be removed from your family for a prolonged period if you are poor even given a similar propensity for criminality in your group. Given that a family is disrupted in this way is it any wonder that decision making capability is then further damaged - producing a depressing spiral down?
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  You didn't quite complete that sentence and it changes the meaning quite a bit: The poor are far more likely than the rich to be arrested and prosecuted for deliberately doing things that harm others
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    You should read the report before commenting.

yummyfajitas 10y ago

I don't know about driving offenses, but we can quantify other harmful behaviors. The poor are far more likely than the rich to deliberately do things that harm others - rob them, engage in violence, etc. Economic motivation for crime is a possible confounder. But we can eliminate that confounder by examining crimes with no plausible economic motive: intimate partner violence, assaulting family members, rape. Poor people engage in these crimes at 4x the rates of others. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf (Another interesting fact - contra Trump - is that poor Hispanics seem far less criminal than poor whites/blacks. This also contradicts popular left wing narratives - if poverty makes poor whites/blacks beat their wives via "stressors" or other mysterious phlogiston, why are Hispanics immune?)

jaggederest 10y ago
> (Another interesting fact - contra Trump - is that poor Hispanics seem far less criminal than poor whites/blacks. This also contradicts popular left wing narratives - if poverty makes poor whites/blacks beat their wives via "stressors" or other mysterious phlogiston, why are Hispanics immune?) Presumably, within immediate memory they have a comparison available with "the old country" which makes a low-end existence in the US seem positively posh.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  So poor American blacks/whites rape people and beat their wives because they don't realize how nice their lifestyle is compared to the lifestyle of Mexicans in Mexico? Personally I don't find this particularly plausible.
  - jaggederest 10y ago
    No, they experience more severe alienation because they don't have significantly worse comparators to measure it against. Generation after generation of grinding (comparative) poverty vs a sense of self respect from making it to the 'land of opportunity' and working for a better life for you/your kids. Also contra Trump, this implies that the average immigrant is probably a pretty productive member of society, and thus a net economic and social benefit.
didgeoridoo 10y ago
The obvious (not necessarily correct) answer is religion and community enforcement of norms. No idea if this is empirically defensible; maybe you'd need to compare north vs. south (and control for about a thousand other variables) to disaggregate the root causes from the noise. I also wouldn't say that intimate partner crime, etc. has "no plausible economic motive"; the rich have far more to lose from a stint in prison, and so might be far less likely to commit these crimes. The "economic motive" is that impulse control prevents economic loss. This (again conjectural) thesis dovetails with the idea above; if it's not economic losses that scare you straight, it might be community/church pressure that does so.
- didgeoridoo 10y ago
  (My god am I promiscuous with semicolons when I've been drinking)
  - adrianratnapala 10y ago
    Then drink; and be semi.
projektir 10y ago
I think you're conflating terms here. The left wing narrative is closer to saying that growing up poor in a given country is likely to generate heavy stressors. And I think this is correct, because growing up poor in a country implies that your family is very low status, which is all sorts of bad from all sorts of sides. The people immigrating to your country are probably not very low status in their country, as they had enough mobility to immigrate, OR growing up low-status in their country had different effects. I don't know enough about Hispanics to say much, but I think family structure and philosophy may be factors. There's also a difference between having no money and having a potato yard and some goats and having no money. Poor Americans often literally have nothing - no money, no food, no parents, no education, no philosophy, etc. In other places, the amount of money you have doesn't correlate so obviously, so when you immigrate, a lot of stuff sticks around, even if it's invisible in the simplistic model of money=success, especially given that immigration itself often gives you an arbitrary pay cut that may take a while to compensate. You can move to the US, and lose your certification to be a doctor because your degree doesn't count in the US, but that doesn't make everything leading up to you becoming a doctor magically evaporate.
- grzm 10y ago
  > The people immigrating to your country are probably not very low status in their country, as they had enough mobility to immigrate, OR growing up low-status in their country had different effects. Another possibility that comes to mind is that there is some difference between those who migrate and those who remain in the same class. Just another point. I'm not taking or implying any position on any of these.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Your idea that poor Americans "literally have nothing" is simply incorrect. Poor Americans have obesity-inducing quantities of food, good quality housing [1] and high quality free education (teachers actually show up!!!). You could be right about "no parents, no philosophy" - I don't have data on this. Is it the really the left wing position, that family structure (traditional family vs single mother) and philosophy (work hard, go to church vs feel envy of the neighbors) are the secrets to success? Having a bad work ethic and feeling envy towards those with more than you will likely cause bad behavior, and that bad behavior causes bad outcomes? But a person with a good philosophy (e.g. your doctor who lost certification) will escape poverty that they are thrust into by chance? I'd love to know what left wing sources you are reading. To me these claims sound like something George Bush or Mitt Romney would say, and then get crucified by the media for saying. [1] This document provides information on virtually any specific aspect of housing you want to know, sliced by income level. E.g. # rooms/person, sagging roof, plumbing issues, washer/dryer/AC/kitchen, etc. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf
sgt101 10y ago
I believe that poor people are more likely to receive very long sentances in the US justice system. This is because if a middle class kid commits a crime their family will hire a lawyer and ensure proper process at least. So it seems to me that in the USA poverty is a predictor for disrupted family life, it is more likely that your mum or dad will be removed from your family for a prolonged period if you are poor even given a similar propensity for criminality in your group. Given that a family is disrupted in this way is it any wonder that decision making capability is then further damaged - producing a depressing spiral down?
erikpukinskis 10y ago
You didn't quite complete that sentence and it changes the meaning quite a bit: The poor are far more likely than the rich to be arrested and prosecuted for deliberately doing things that harm others
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  You should read the report before commenting.