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Why is Tenure still a thing? It's basically a lifetime employment contract. It seems the only argument for tenure is academic freedom.. a tenured professor can

by gregmac 10y ago

Why is Tenure still a thing? It's basically a lifetime employment contract. It seems the only argument for tenure is academic freedom.. a tenured professor can pursue an avenue of research without fear of reprisal for it being controversial or not yielding results (though really, even experiments that 'fail' actually serve to prove that it's not the way to go). It seems to be me like this is a problem that can be solved in many better ways. For example, employees in most (every?) jurisdiction are protected by laws that mean they can't be fired without just cause. Even if the employer tries to find ways around this (making up reasons), the fired employee can generally lodge a complaint/lawsuit to prove otherwise. Can some type of protection of this sort not be written into academic contracts as well?

detaro 10y ago
Tenure is just an employment contract that can only be terminated with just cause. (And the number of tenure-track positions is going down as far as I know)
- dluan 10y ago
  Tenure is shrinking because universities are realizing that the core of their workforce isn't tenured scientists - it's assistants and adjuncts, post-docs, and grad students. In the business model world of big science being publish, get grant funding, take overhead, tenured professors are mainly just project managers. Why make a commitment to support 2x more tenure track positions when you have 1-2 good enough to attract wide-eyed grad students? This is the market correcting itself to shrinking federal budgets and ballooning workforce supply.
totalZero 10y ago
Professors are also thinkers and researchers. Thinkers should be free to explore different positions, without fear of being ostracized for their ideas. Researchers should have some sense of longevity, so that they can undertake grand projects that require years of continuity. Your third point is not always applicable, in my understanding. At-will employees in New York can be fired for any non-protected reason, or even without cause. Contracts and unions elevate the burden of the employer to justify a termination, but outside of that, it's not easy to fight a wrongful termination without having hard evidence of some kind of implied contract.
stablemap 10y ago
Another part of the argument is that the security of tenure somewhat offsets the low salaries of academia relative to industry.
- sseagull 10y ago
  Sort of. Depends on what you mean "low". I know salaries in that field can be skewed by large salaries from tech companies, but tenured professors at UB tend to make at least $100k, which is a very good salary in areas such as western NY. "Superstars" can make around $250k. As a side note, since UB is a state school, salaries are public information[0]. He was making over $100k, even before tenure. [0] http://seethroughny.net http://seethroughny.net
  - ngdmbaz 10y ago
    Every public employee in Texas must have its salary public, so you can see those nice 5 million dollars a year salary for football coach, president etc.[1][2], but you can also look at the Computer Science professors [3][4]. It ranges from a $154k to $250k, those salaries don't look too skewed compared to tech companies, especially considering the cost of life in those city (median housing price 3 to 6x cheaper than SF) A $250k salary in Austin is supposedly equivalent to a $450k salary in San Francisco[5]. [1] https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-austin/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-aus... [2] https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/ [3] https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-austin/departments/department-of-computer-science/positions/professor/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-aus... [4] https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/departments/hd-computer-sci/positions/professor/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/depart... [5] https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/austin-vs-san-francisco https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare...
    - easaleaise 10y ago
      > those salaries don't look too skewed compared to tech companies First, I think UT is a bit of an outlier: they are one of the top ranked departments in the country. Second: faculty members making $150k typically don't step into jobs in industry at $150k, they typically double or triple their salary. Generally, salaries in academia are much lower than what the academic could be making in industry. However, to make that in industry they'd have to compromise in a lot of ways: having a job in academia means you're trading your opportunity cost to not have a boss, work on what you want, mentor students, set your own hours, etc... Anecdotally (from my experience in academia) salaries for profs at average departments ranges from low 100s to high 100s, unless you move into more management-style roles (e.g., department chair). Naturally, this is higher for top places.
pmiller2 10y ago
> employees in most (every?) jurisdiction are protected by laws that mean they can't be fired without just cause. The United States is not one of those jurisdictions. Employees can be fired for any reason other than certain protected reasons (race, etc.) One can literally be fired for supporting the wrong political candidate, for example.
- latch 10y ago
  I understand the spirit of your comment, and it's probably a fair summary for anyone unfamiliar with at-will employment, but (a) a lot of this is state-specific, not US wide as you indicate (b) many states have laws specifically to protect employees from being fired for their political affiliations and activities. (c) some states have even broader protection But, to your point, you can always fire someone for their political view and say it was for one of a billion other non-protected reason.
  - pmiller2 10y ago
    The specifics vary by state, of course, but actually very few states protect political activity, either inside or outside the workplace. In fact, only 3 states specifically protect political activity, and two others protect "lawful conduct outside work."[0] But, yes, you can always fire your employees for being too attractive[1], if firing them for their political beliefs is too risky or distasteful. Broadly speaking, unless the employee has contractual protection; or the reason is discriminatory against members of a protected class, is in retaliation for exercising other workplace rights, or is contrary to public policy; it's legally acceptable to fire anyone for any reason. [0]: http://www.workplacefairness.org/retaliation-political-activity#1 http://www.workplacefairness.org/retaliation-political-activ... [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/fashion/Some-women-are-fired-for-being-too-attractive.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/fashion/Some-women-are-fir...
analog31 10y ago
I don't think it's the underlying reason for tenure, but it's my guess that if you eliminate it, the faculty will simply unionize. For instance, K-12 teachers have tenure as a benefit written into their union contracts.
esfandia 10y ago
Tenure also allows the researcher to keep digging that rabbit hole that he/she is specializing in without fear of one day having to work in "the real world", where that very specialized knowledge is essentially useless. (That came out like it's a bad thing, but it's not.)

by gregmac 10y ago

detaro 10y ago

Tenure is just an employment contract that can only be terminated with just cause. (And the number of tenure-track positions is going down as far as I know)

dluan 10y ago
Tenure is shrinking because universities are realizing that the core of their workforce isn't tenured scientists - it's assistants and adjuncts, post-docs, and grad students. In the business model world of big science being publish, get grant funding, take overhead, tenured professors are mainly just project managers. Why make a commitment to support 2x more tenure track positions when you have 1-2 good enough to attract wide-eyed grad students? This is the market correcting itself to shrinking federal budgets and ballooning workforce supply.

totalZero 10y ago

Professors are also thinkers and researchers. Thinkers should be free to explore different positions, without fear of being ostracized for their ideas. Researchers should have some sense of longevity, so that they can undertake grand projects that require years of continuity. Your third point is not always applicable, in my understanding. At-will employees in New York can be fired for any non-protected reason, or even without cause. Contracts and unions elevate the burden of the employer to justify a termination, but outside of that, it's not easy to fight a wrongful termination without having hard evidence of some kind of implied contract.

stablemap 10y ago

Another part of the argument is that the security of tenure somewhat offsets the low salaries of academia relative to industry.

sseagull 10y ago
Sort of. Depends on what you mean "low". I know salaries in that field can be skewed by large salaries from tech companies, but tenured professors at UB tend to make at least $100k, which is a very good salary in areas such as western NY. "Superstars" can make around $250k. As a side note, since UB is a state school, salaries are public information[0]. He was making over $100k, even before tenure. [0] http://seethroughny.net http://seethroughny.net
- ngdmbaz 10y ago
  Every public employee in Texas must have its salary public, so you can see those nice 5 million dollars a year salary for football coach, president etc.[1][2], but you can also look at the Computer Science professors [3][4]. It ranges from a $154k to $250k, those salaries don't look too skewed compared to tech companies, especially considering the cost of life in those city (median housing price 3 to 6x cheaper than SF) A $250k salary in Austin is supposedly equivalent to a $450k salary in San Francisco[5]. [1] https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-austin/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-aus... [2] https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/ [3] https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-austin/departments/department-of-computer-science/positions/professor/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/university-of-texas-at-aus... [4] https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/departments/hd-computer-sci/positions/professor/ https://salaries.texastribune.org/texas-am-university/depart... [5] https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/austin-vs-san-francisco https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare...
  - easaleaise 10y ago
    > those salaries don't look too skewed compared to tech companies First, I think UT is a bit of an outlier: they are one of the top ranked departments in the country. Second: faculty members making $150k typically don't step into jobs in industry at $150k, they typically double or triple their salary. Generally, salaries in academia are much lower than what the academic could be making in industry. However, to make that in industry they'd have to compromise in a lot of ways: having a job in academia means you're trading your opportunity cost to not have a boss, work on what you want, mentor students, set your own hours, etc... Anecdotally (from my experience in academia) salaries for profs at average departments ranges from low 100s to high 100s, unless you move into more management-style roles (e.g., department chair). Naturally, this is higher for top places.

pmiller2 10y ago

> employees in most (every?) jurisdiction are protected by laws that mean they can't be fired without just cause. The United States is not one of those jurisdictions. Employees can be fired for any reason other than certain protected reasons (race, etc.) One can literally be fired for supporting the wrong political candidate, for example.

latch 10y ago
I understand the spirit of your comment, and it's probably a fair summary for anyone unfamiliar with at-will employment, but (a) a lot of this is state-specific, not US wide as you indicate (b) many states have laws specifically to protect employees from being fired for their political affiliations and activities. (c) some states have even broader protection But, to your point, you can always fire someone for their political view and say it was for one of a billion other non-protected reason.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  The specifics vary by state, of course, but actually very few states protect political activity, either inside or outside the workplace. In fact, only 3 states specifically protect political activity, and two others protect "lawful conduct outside work."[0] But, yes, you can always fire your employees for being too attractive[1], if firing them for their political beliefs is too risky or distasteful. Broadly speaking, unless the employee has contractual protection; or the reason is discriminatory against members of a protected class, is in retaliation for exercising other workplace rights, or is contrary to public policy; it's legally acceptable to fire anyone for any reason. [0]: http://www.workplacefairness.org/retaliation-political-activity#1 http://www.workplacefairness.org/retaliation-political-activ... [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/fashion/Some-women-are-fired-for-being-too-attractive.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/fashion/Some-women-are-fir...

analog31 10y ago

I don't think it's the underlying reason for tenure, but it's my guess that if you eliminate it, the faculty will simply unionize. For instance, K-12 teachers have tenure as a benefit written into their union contracts.

esfandia 10y ago

Tenure also allows the researcher to keep digging that rabbit hole that he/she is specializing in without fear of one day having to work in "the real world", where that very specialized knowledge is essentially useless. (That came out like it's a bad thing, but it's not.)