5 ms·

"The fact that most women don't want to engage in programming is not a natural phenomenon" It's potentially not a natural phenomenon. To the extent it is unnat

by natrius 17y ago

"The fact that most women don't want to engage in programming is not a natural phenomenon" It's potentially not a natural phenomenon. To the extent it is unnatural, we should strive to fix it, but most theories behind the discrepancy are conjecture, and when people are blamed for creating an inhospitable environment for others without concrete evidence behind it, nothing constructive will come of it.

DrSprout 17y ago
There were no women in my class of 15 Computer Science majors at a small liberal arts college. There were definitely women in my class who took some CS, and took classes initially intending to complete the major. Now, while there are I'm sure a variety of causes for that, it's unquestionable that a class of 15, all of the opposite sex, is an inhospitable environment.
- run4yourlives 17y ago
  it's unquestionable that a class of 15, all of the opposite sex, is an inhospitable environment. I'm curious as to: a) your solution to this and b) whether you intend to implement it to more than just computer science, like say Women's Studies and such. I'd think it would be really nice to have a 50/50 split of every possible class, especially when women currently make up 57% of grads.
  - DrSprout 17y ago
    Oh, it's definitely just as much an issue for women's studies. And I don't claim to have a solution. I was taking issue with the assertion that there is no concrete evidence that CS presents an inhospitable environment for women. Yes, it bears more study, but there's clearly an inhospitable environment.
    - run4yourlives 17y ago
      Whether or not there is an "inhospitable environment" is irrelevant if women show low interest rates that are linked to natural factors. Outliers must adapt to the environments they are faced with. The inference of a particular place being "inhospitable" suggests that there is a large percentage minority at least that is being prevented from engaging in the experience because the current set up forces them to disengage. I'm not seeing that. And as much as I wouldn't suggest that a class on French Fashion trends not need to over-accommodate the single male that is obsessed with this, I don't see any pressing needs to do this here either.
      - DrSprout 17y ago
        The main issue I see with your argument is that you're supposing interest to be correlated with anticipated ability and enjoyment of the profession. Unlike French Fashion trends, programming is an important driver of our society, and as such we should look for people who will be enthusiastic and skilled programmers. There's no way of knowing that when most women do not even take an introductory programming course.
        waterlesscloud 17y ago
        My guess would be that most enthusiastic programmers realized they would be interested in the field prior to their first programming course.
        yummyfajitas 17y ago
        I suspect that many (such as myself) also became less interested during their first programming course.
        roundsquare 17y ago
        It maybe becoming time to require at least one programming course in college/high school, the same way schools require some math/history/science/etc.... I suspect if we could find a way to teach kids a little programming in grade school we would to them and society a world of good... but as far as I can tell we haven't yet been able to find a way to teach programming at that level.

by natrius 17y ago

DrSprout 17y ago

There were no women in my class of 15 Computer Science majors at a small liberal arts college. There were definitely women in my class who took some CS, and took classes initially intending to complete the major. Now, while there are I'm sure a variety of causes for that, it's unquestionable that a class of 15, all of the opposite sex, is an inhospitable environment.

run4yourlives 17y ago
it's unquestionable that a class of 15, all of the opposite sex, is an inhospitable environment. I'm curious as to: a) your solution to this and b) whether you intend to implement it to more than just computer science, like say Women's Studies and such. I'd think it would be really nice to have a 50/50 split of every possible class, especially when women currently make up 57% of grads.
- DrSprout 17y ago
  Oh, it's definitely just as much an issue for women's studies. And I don't claim to have a solution. I was taking issue with the assertion that there is no concrete evidence that CS presents an inhospitable environment for women. Yes, it bears more study, but there's clearly an inhospitable environment.
  - run4yourlives 17y ago
    Whether or not there is an "inhospitable environment" is irrelevant if women show low interest rates that are linked to natural factors. Outliers must adapt to the environments they are faced with. The inference of a particular place being "inhospitable" suggests that there is a large percentage minority at least that is being prevented from engaging in the experience because the current set up forces them to disengage. I'm not seeing that. And as much as I wouldn't suggest that a class on French Fashion trends not need to over-accommodate the single male that is obsessed with this, I don't see any pressing needs to do this here either.
    - DrSprout 17y ago
      The main issue I see with your argument is that you're supposing interest to be correlated with anticipated ability and enjoyment of the profession. Unlike French Fashion trends, programming is an important driver of our society, and as such we should look for people who will be enthusiastic and skilled programmers. There's no way of knowing that when most women do not even take an introductory programming course.
      - waterlesscloud 17y ago
        My guess would be that most enthusiastic programmers realized they would be interested in the field prior to their first programming course.
        yummyfajitas 17y ago
        I suspect that many (such as myself) also became less interested during their first programming course.
        roundsquare 17y ago
        It maybe becoming time to require at least one programming course in college/high school, the same way schools require some math/history/science/etc.... I suspect if we could find a way to teach kids a little programming in grade school we would to them and society a world of good... but as far as I can tell we haven't yet been able to find a way to teach programming at that level.