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Why should you "avoid leaderboards"? No explanation under that bullet point. I like leaderboards that let me see how I've done in real games against my friend

Why should you "avoid leaderboards"? No explanation under that bullet point. I like leaderboards that let me see how I've done in real games against my friends (XBox Live Arcade has a great implementation of this). What's wrong with using them in an app?

sachinag 17y ago
I get into this in some level of detail in the presentation, but the PVP mechanic of leaderboards inhibits new players/users because it's another barrier to entry. Remember why Digg killed their leaderboard - you end up with a hypercompetitive top slice. Lastly, unlike with "real" games, there's not an easy way to cordon off and on-ramp newbies.
- bmalicoat 17y ago
  Why not just show how you compare against your friends by default and have an option to change the filter to global?
  - DannoHung 17y ago
    Yeah, that's the sort of leaderboard that I like. Not the global ones. Also, it should be pretty easy to make it newb friendly: Just don't make any of the stats lifetime stats. Monthly or Weekly should be good.
  - lotharbot 17y ago
    My wife and I are both hard-core gamers. We play games for all they're worth, often inventing new challenges, and on a few occasions impressing either the game designers or the relevant game communities. We both recently picked up a viral Facebook game, did some analysis and testing to create a near-optimal design, and quickly moved to the top of our local leaderboard. Most of our friends quit playing soon after. One of the major problems with leaderboards is that they can discourage those who don't have the time, resources, or sk1llz to compete with the top of the (local or global) food chain. Restricting leaderboards to "just your friends" only resolves the issue if everyone on your local list plays at a similar level of seriousness.
imp 17y ago
There's some discussion on that on the website for the book Building Reputations: "Leaderboards Considered Harmful" http://buildingreputation.com/writings/2008/12/leaderboards_considered_harmfu.html http://buildingreputation.com/writings/2008/12/leaderboards_...
wortiz 17y ago
It depends on whether you want your users to compete against each other or not. Take in example reddit trying to avoid becoming digg and hacker news trying to avoid becoming reddit, what is everyone trying to avoid? Competition for points and essentially leaderboards. However for something like games leaderboards are essential as they can provide an incentive to keep playing.
- derefr 17y ago
  A qualification: > However for something like games leaderboards are essential as they can provide an incentive for achievement-oriented players to keep playing. Leaderboards will do nothing for other types of players, and may actively repel some (explorers who are given too "transparent" a view into the system through an itemized leaderboard score.)
- jeff18 17y ago
  HackerNews has leaderboards though. http://news.ycombinator.com/lists http://news.ycombinator.com/lists
  - hugh3 17y ago
    Though interestingly there's no longer a link to the leaderboard on the top bar.

sachinag 17y ago

I get into this in some level of detail in the presentation, but the PVP mechanic of leaderboards inhibits new players/users because it's another barrier to entry. Remember why Digg killed their leaderboard - you end up with a hypercompetitive top slice. Lastly, unlike with "real" games, there's not an easy way to cordon off and on-ramp newbies.

bmalicoat 17y ago
Why not just show how you compare against your friends by default and have an option to change the filter to global?
- DannoHung 17y ago
  Yeah, that's the sort of leaderboard that I like. Not the global ones. Also, it should be pretty easy to make it newb friendly: Just don't make any of the stats lifetime stats. Monthly or Weekly should be good.
- lotharbot 17y ago
  My wife and I are both hard-core gamers. We play games for all they're worth, often inventing new challenges, and on a few occasions impressing either the game designers or the relevant game communities. We both recently picked up a viral Facebook game, did some analysis and testing to create a near-optimal design, and quickly moved to the top of our local leaderboard. Most of our friends quit playing soon after. One of the major problems with leaderboards is that they can discourage those who don't have the time, resources, or sk1llz to compete with the top of the (local or global) food chain. Restricting leaderboards to "just your friends" only resolves the issue if everyone on your local list plays at a similar level of seriousness.

imp 17y ago

There's some discussion on that on the website for the book Building Reputations: "Leaderboards Considered Harmful" http://buildingreputation.com/writings/2008/12/leaderboards_considered_harmfu.html http://buildingreputation.com/writings/2008/12/leaderboards_...

wortiz 17y ago

It depends on whether you want your users to compete against each other or not. Take in example reddit trying to avoid becoming digg and hacker news trying to avoid becoming reddit, what is everyone trying to avoid? Competition for points and essentially leaderboards. However for something like games leaderboards are essential as they can provide an incentive to keep playing.

derefr 17y ago
A qualification: > However for something like games leaderboards are essential as they can provide an incentive for achievement-oriented players to keep playing. Leaderboards will do nothing for other types of players, and may actively repel some (explorers who are given too "transparent" a view into the system through an itemized leaderboard score.)
jeff18 17y ago
HackerNews has leaderboards though. http://news.ycombinator.com/lists http://news.ycombinator.com/lists
- hugh3 17y ago
  Though interestingly there's no longer a link to the leaderboard on the top bar.