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So, in what way would I be wrong if I called you a generative system? I don't see any connection to consciousness whatsoever. Imagine in the year 1900 a black

So, in what way would I be wrong if I called you a generative system? I don't see any connection to consciousness whatsoever. Imagine in the year 1900 a black box existed with a slot to input paper on one side and output paper on the other. If all physics papers available at the time were fed into it, and out popped the special theory of relativity, how is that not creativity?

santaclaus 10y ago
Einstein is a black box that reads physics papers and poops theorems? Sign me up!
wpietri 10y ago
You might not see any connection, but it is nonetheless how people use the word. Human language is mainly about humans and their relation to the world. If your black box contains Einstein, then yes, it's a creative act. If it contains an artificial consciousness, then yes, it's a creative act. But if it contains infinite monkeys typing randomly into LaTeX producing infinite physics papers, then no, that's not creativity, just the generation of novelty. I could call a red rock-face "angry", and I could call a mountain lake "tranquil". But that's projecting emotional states onto the external world. Calling dice creative is projecting a cognitive state onto the world. Sure, it works fine as metaphor. But it's just analogy, not homology.
- WhitneyLand 10y ago
  I've enjoyed your comments, they've helped me clarify my thoughts. It seems we disagree on what creativity is. I strongly believe humans/consciousness are not essential elements in it. For starters: 1). No dictionary seems to link creativity and humanity 2). Einstein's insights are considered some of the greatest examples of original thinking ever, and would not be diminished, or less beneficial to society, if conjured by a black box. 3). By your definition, a machine could out do a human by a thousand fold in every possible task and still not be creative. I don't think there's any precedent or foundation that would make that a tenable position.
  - wpietri 10y ago
    Glad to hear it. And I agree that we disagree on what creativity is. As to your points: Dictionaries are written by humans. The human is always implied. One way to tell is by looking at synonyms: inventiveness, imagination, innovation, innovativeness, originality, individuality. All very huuman words. If the theory of relativity came from a black box, then sure, it would still be a good theory, and we'd still benefit from it. That does not make the black box creative. Conscious machines could indeed be creative. We are, after all, conscious machines. But creativity involves a shift in understanding, and nonconscious machines don't understand.

santaclaus 10y ago

Einstein is a black box that reads physics papers and poops theorems? Sign me up!

wpietri 10y ago

You might not see any connection, but it is nonetheless how people use the word. Human language is mainly about humans and their relation to the world. If your black box contains Einstein, then yes, it's a creative act. If it contains an artificial consciousness, then yes, it's a creative act. But if it contains infinite monkeys typing randomly into LaTeX producing infinite physics papers, then no, that's not creativity, just the generation of novelty. I could call a red rock-face "angry", and I could call a mountain lake "tranquil". But that's projecting emotional states onto the external world. Calling dice creative is projecting a cognitive state onto the world. Sure, it works fine as metaphor. But it's just analogy, not homology.

WhitneyLand 10y ago
I've enjoyed your comments, they've helped me clarify my thoughts. It seems we disagree on what creativity is. I strongly believe humans/consciousness are not essential elements in it. For starters: 1). No dictionary seems to link creativity and humanity 2). Einstein's insights are considered some of the greatest examples of original thinking ever, and would not be diminished, or less beneficial to society, if conjured by a black box. 3). By your definition, a machine could out do a human by a thousand fold in every possible task and still not be creative. I don't think there's any precedent or foundation that would make that a tenable position.
- wpietri 10y ago
  Glad to hear it. And I agree that we disagree on what creativity is. As to your points: Dictionaries are written by humans. The human is always implied. One way to tell is by looking at synonyms: inventiveness, imagination, innovation, innovativeness, originality, individuality. All very huuman words. If the theory of relativity came from a black box, then sure, it would still be a good theory, and we'd still benefit from it. That does not make the black box creative. Conscious machines could indeed be creative. We are, after all, conscious machines. But creativity involves a shift in understanding, and nonconscious machines don't understand.