6 ms·

It is patently unfair that people who grew up in the bay area cannot afford to live here because of this anti-growth attitude. Democracy is not the freedom to

It is patently unfair that people who grew up in the bay area cannot afford to live here because of this anti-growth attitude. Democracy is not the freedom to step on other people, including dictating that others cannot build a multi-family dwelling on their own land. Real Estate NIMBY-ism is the antithesis of democracy, because it is a few entitled people saying they will control what other people do with their own private property.

gozur88 10y ago
If you buy a piece of property in a place that puts certain restrictions on what you can do with it that's all baked into the price. I don't see that anyone has a right to live in any particular place, and much of what people like about the city is a result of "Real Estate NIMBY-ism". Also, it's hard to see how "a few entitled people" control what people are doing with their property, unless that's become new slang for "the majority of voters".
- hueving 10y ago
  >Also, it's hard to see how "a few entitled people" control what people are doing with their property, unless that's become new slang for "the majority of voters". In this case, that's exactly what it's slang for. The only people who can vote for these things are the ones already entitled enough to live in the city. Everyone else that was forced to the east bay and down south has no voice.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    I'm okay with that. Why should people in the East or South Bay have a say in how San Francisco governs itself?
    - otterley 10y ago
      Because how SF governs itself has external impacts upon people living outside SF: traffic, pollution, cost of living, etc.
      - gozur88 10y ago
        Other people will always affect you. That doesn't give you the right to govern them.
        otterley 10y ago
        On the contrary, that's exactly why we have government in the first place -- because the alternative is war. For a primer on the philosophical reasons behind government, I recommend _Leviathan_ (1651) by Thomas Hobbes.
        gozur88 10y ago
        Well, okay. But the result of one group of people being governed by another is also war. We have different levels of government for a reason. EDIT: To other points occur to me: 1) I've never found Hobbes very compelling. And 2) If "these other people affect me" is your (not you you, but the general you) idea of a casus belli, you will perpetually be at war no matter how large or small your government.
credit_guy 10y ago
An economic solution to nimbyism is bribe: as a developer give everyone within one block of your proposed site $200 per month, within 2 block $100 per month, etc, and see how many people vote against your development. Of course, you can structure it as property tax reduction for your friendly neighbors, and find a catchy name for it, like "externality tax abatement" (anyone interested in a kickstarter idea? just kiding)
- bufordsharkley 10y ago
  A Coasean solution to NIMBYism! I think there's merit in this, but when you expand it to the bigger problem of the landed and the landless, you see how it fails to scale: a Coasean solution to landlessness is equivalent to a Coasean solution to slavery-- but slaves can't exactly afford to buy themselves out of their situation...

gozur88 10y ago

If you buy a piece of property in a place that puts certain restrictions on what you can do with it that's all baked into the price. I don't see that anyone has a right to live in any particular place, and much of what people like about the city is a result of "Real Estate NIMBY-ism". Also, it's hard to see how "a few entitled people" control what people are doing with their property, unless that's become new slang for "the majority of voters".

hueving 10y ago
>Also, it's hard to see how "a few entitled people" control what people are doing with their property, unless that's become new slang for "the majority of voters". In this case, that's exactly what it's slang for. The only people who can vote for these things are the ones already entitled enough to live in the city. Everyone else that was forced to the east bay and down south has no voice.
- gozur88 10y ago
  I'm okay with that. Why should people in the East or South Bay have a say in how San Francisco governs itself?
  - otterley 10y ago
    Because how SF governs itself has external impacts upon people living outside SF: traffic, pollution, cost of living, etc.
    - gozur88 10y ago
      Other people will always affect you. That doesn't give you the right to govern them.
      - otterley 10y ago
        On the contrary, that's exactly why we have government in the first place -- because the alternative is war. For a primer on the philosophical reasons behind government, I recommend _Leviathan_ (1651) by Thomas Hobbes.
        gozur88 10y ago
        Well, okay. But the result of one group of people being governed by another is also war. We have different levels of government for a reason. EDIT: To other points occur to me: 1) I've never found Hobbes very compelling. And 2) If "these other people affect me" is your (not you you, but the general you) idea of a casus belli, you will perpetually be at war no matter how large or small your government.

credit_guy 10y ago

An economic solution to nimbyism is bribe: as a developer give everyone within one block of your proposed site $200 per month, within 2 block $100 per month, etc, and see how many people vote against your development. Of course, you can structure it as property tax reduction for your friendly neighbors, and find a catchy name for it, like "externality tax abatement" (anyone interested in a kickstarter idea? just kiding)

bufordsharkley 10y ago
A Coasean solution to NIMBYism! I think there's merit in this, but when you expand it to the bigger problem of the landed and the landless, you see how it fails to scale: a Coasean solution to landlessness is equivalent to a Coasean solution to slavery-- but slaves can't exactly afford to buy themselves out of their situation...