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> The voter fraud impact on an election (As found by every study and investigation into the question is completely insignificant.) A non-partisan elections mon

by wang_li 10y ago

> The voter fraud impact on an election (As found by every study and investigation into the question is completely insignificant.) A non-partisan elections monitoring group in Virginia has documented thousands of people who identify themselves on jury duty forms as non-citizens but who have registered and voted. Thousands of voters can easily sway local and state elections. For example, in the 2004 Washington State Gubernatorial race the margin of victory was 129 votes. (The vote tallying was a complete mess. During the manual recount King County poll workers discovered a number of ballots that were invalidated for improper signatures, and also "discovered" 162 previously uncounted ballots in a tray in a warehouse. Additionally King County had 895,660 listed voters and 899,199 counted ballots. Election fraud happens and it has happened recently and it changes the results of races.) > In the case of voter fraud, you have after-the-fact redress - invalidation of ballots, jail time, deportation. No you don't. You might be able to jail and deport someone, but there is zero connection between a ballot and a voter. There is no way to remove the invalid ballot and have a correct count. Note that if it were possible to connect a ballot to a voter then you cannot have free and fair elections.

vkou 10y ago
> A non-partisan elections monitoring group in Virginia has documented thousands of people who identify themselves on jury duty forms as non-citizens but who have registered and voted. Thousands of voters can easily sway local and state elections. This should tell you more about how much people want to do jury duty, then how much they want to perform voter fraud. Also, have you considered that they may have become citizens between the time that they were called up, and the time that they voted?
- wang_li 10y ago
  There are three possibilities: 1 - citizen who lies on their jury duty questionnaire to get out of serving. 2 - non-citizens who told the truth on their jury duty questionnaire. 3 - non-citizens who became citizens, but were registered to vote before they became citizens. The first have committed perjury and are ineligible to vote. The second are ineligible to vote, plus there is some weirdness associated with them even being selected for jury duty, read on. As for the third, jury lists are drawn from voter registration as the requirements to vote and the requirements to be on a jury are the same. It's unlawful to register to vote if you aren't a citizen. So the third group has also committed a crime and are ineligible to vote. And ineligible to become citizens and would face deportation if anyone bothered to followup.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    The first have committed perjury and are ineligible to vote. Because they are felons? There's 3 problems with that argument. Some states allow convicted felons to vote, the people in question have not been convicted and it's a bad law to disenfranchise felons.
  - vkou 10y ago
    I am a non-citizen, and I have been selected for jury duty. I have obviously declined it. The jury duty selection process is done by picking drivers' licenses at random. You don't need to be a citizen to have a driver's license. You're missing option #4, which is far more likely then option #3 - non-citizens who were called up for jury duty, who later became citizens. Your analysis of group #1 is in contradiction with reality. People make up all sorts of reasons to get out of jury duty. In practice, they are not prosecuted for it.
    - wang_li 10y ago
      > I am a non-citizen, and I have been selected for jury duty. I have obviously declined it. Based on researching my prior response, Federal courts use voter registration. Some states may use drivers license lists. However, Virginia seems to use voter registration. There's actually a good chance that you are registered to vote. With the Motor Voter law that has been in place since the 1990s, nearly everyone who has received a drivers license has also been registered to vote. Even in cases where people mark they are not citizens, the systems are screwing up and registering them. What basis do you have for saying that it's more likely that people have become citizens between being selected for jury duty and going on to vote? Given that 50% of the non-citizen residents are here unlawfully, it seems improbable that there is any majority that have become citizens. I'd just repeat the inquiry as to whether you have any research that follows up on your hypothesis.
dllthomas 10y ago
> Additionally King County had 895,660 listed voters and 899,199 counted ballots. Election fraud happens and it has happened recently and it changes the results of races. Given the typical procedure in these places (registered voters on a list, list is checked off as people vote) this shouldn't happen even if no verification of identity is done, which means those extra ballots appeared in some way circumventing normal procedure. Adding an ID check to normal procedure isn't going to help. It seems particularly galling that abuse of the system by those powerful and connected enough to stuff the ballot box is used as justification to make it harder for the powerless to vote.

by wang_li 10y ago

vkou 10y ago

> A non-partisan elections monitoring group in Virginia has documented thousands of people who identify themselves on jury duty forms as non-citizens but who have registered and voted. Thousands of voters can easily sway local and state elections. This should tell you more about how much people want to do jury duty, then how much they want to perform voter fraud. Also, have you considered that they may have become citizens between the time that they were called up, and the time that they voted?

wang_li 10y ago
There are three possibilities: 1 - citizen who lies on their jury duty questionnaire to get out of serving. 2 - non-citizens who told the truth on their jury duty questionnaire. 3 - non-citizens who became citizens, but were registered to vote before they became citizens. The first have committed perjury and are ineligible to vote. The second are ineligible to vote, plus there is some weirdness associated with them even being selected for jury duty, read on. As for the third, jury lists are drawn from voter registration as the requirements to vote and the requirements to be on a jury are the same. It's unlawful to register to vote if you aren't a citizen. So the third group has also committed a crime and are ineligible to vote. And ineligible to become citizens and would face deportation if anyone bothered to followup.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  The first have committed perjury and are ineligible to vote. Because they are felons? There's 3 problems with that argument. Some states allow convicted felons to vote, the people in question have not been convicted and it's a bad law to disenfranchise felons.
- vkou 10y ago
  I am a non-citizen, and I have been selected for jury duty. I have obviously declined it. The jury duty selection process is done by picking drivers' licenses at random. You don't need to be a citizen to have a driver's license. You're missing option #4, which is far more likely then option #3 - non-citizens who were called up for jury duty, who later became citizens. Your analysis of group #1 is in contradiction with reality. People make up all sorts of reasons to get out of jury duty. In practice, they are not prosecuted for it.
  - wang_li 10y ago
    > I am a non-citizen, and I have been selected for jury duty. I have obviously declined it. Based on researching my prior response, Federal courts use voter registration. Some states may use drivers license lists. However, Virginia seems to use voter registration. There's actually a good chance that you are registered to vote. With the Motor Voter law that has been in place since the 1990s, nearly everyone who has received a drivers license has also been registered to vote. Even in cases where people mark they are not citizens, the systems are screwing up and registering them. What basis do you have for saying that it's more likely that people have become citizens between being selected for jury duty and going on to vote? Given that 50% of the non-citizen residents are here unlawfully, it seems improbable that there is any majority that have become citizens. I'd just repeat the inquiry as to whether you have any research that follows up on your hypothesis.

dllthomas 10y ago

> Additionally King County had 895,660 listed voters and 899,199 counted ballots. Election fraud happens and it has happened recently and it changes the results of races. Given the typical procedure in these places (registered voters on a list, list is checked off as people vote) this shouldn't happen even if no verification of identity is done, which means those extra ballots appeared in some way circumventing normal procedure. Adding an ID check to normal procedure isn't going to help. It seems particularly galling that abuse of the system by those powerful and connected enough to stuff the ballot box is used as justification to make it harder for the powerless to vote.