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Very unlikely that this has performance that competes with Sony and Microsoft. This is an integrated GPU on a battery-powered device with limited thermal regula

by adrusi 10y ago

Very unlikely that this has performance that competes with Sony and Microsoft. This is an integrated GPU on a battery-powered device with limited thermal regulation. The PS4 and Xbox One are always plugged in to AC and have plenty of space for a proper cooling system. That's OK, this time the console actually takes advantage of weaker performance to offer a better form-factor. Whether that tradeoff satisfies consumers is yet to be seen.

monk_e_boy 10y ago
Agreed. They show off Skyrim which is an xbox 360 game.
- favorited 10y ago
  Presumably it is the upcoming remaster, which is Xbox One & PS4.
- pwthornton 10y ago
  It appears to the the upcoming definitive edition remaster. It looks like the power is somewhere between Xbox 360 and Xbox One. The specs I saw showed it with 4 GBs of ram, which would put it clearly above Xbox 360/PS3 power and even a bit above the Wii U, which can do way better looking games than Xbox 360/PS3. We shall see what the final specs and games look like, but what they showed off looked pretty good. It won't be PS4 Pro or Xbox One Scorpio powerful, but it's a device you can use on the go (or for second-screen gaming, which might be the killer app here).
ben174 10y ago
There is a lot of speculation in the community that when docked, additional video processing will be available in the hardware within the dock. When undocked, they can scale down resolution and frame rate for the smaller screen.
- macspoofing 10y ago
  >There is a lot of speculation in the community that when docked, additional video processing will be available in the hardware within the dock. Doubt it. Not a trivial problem to solve technically and console pricing is inflexible - they need to sell this thing for under $400, and Nintendo hates subsidizing hardware.
  - chx 10y ago
    USB C connector Alternate Mode can be used to carry PCIe signals (without Thunderbolt). Switching GPUs is a well solved problem for nVidia, they call it Optimus. By now this is a technically solved problem, no problems.
    - rtkwe 10y ago
      I don't think with the nVidia blog posts and the pictures of the dock that they're hiding a more powerful GPU in the dock. If it were I'd expect a larger dock to provide more cooling to the docked GPU and some mention of 2 GPUs or GPU switching in the nVidia blog post about the Switch.
      - chx 10y ago
        This I do not know; I was just commenting on "Not a trivial problem to solve technically".
    - macspoofing 10y ago
      >By now this is a technically solved problem, no problems. Is it? We're not talking about load balancing GPUs - we're talking about a GPU just disappearing underneath you (like when the user picks up the Switch), while maintaining context and dynamically lowering quality - I can't imagine that being a trivial problem. But that's not the major issue here. Nintendo is going to have to sell this thing for under $400. A mid-market smart-phone costs that much. Shipping a dock with a high performance GPU along with the actual portable isn't going to happen.
  - jocro 10y ago
    One concept that seems feasible - if the portable device is vented but lacking airflow for cooling, power that airflow with fans in the dock. Then, when docked, overclock the chip (or underclock when undocked). This all presupposes, though, that the hardware they're packing in the portable unit is comparable to what's in the PS4/XBO or their newer equivalents.
- white-flame 10y ago
  It could be that the chip itself is throttled when in handheld mode, and the dock provides additional power and cooling, as an alternative take on that option.
- jmkni 10y ago
  The higher end Intel NUC's work this way, would be cool if this was true
kbenson 10y ago
> This is an integrated GPU You say that like it's supposed to imply it's worse for some reason. > battery-powered device with limited thermal regulation. The Xbox one and PS4 were both released about three years ago. Almost three and a half by the time the Switch is released. That's a long time for Moore's law to operate, and it's easier for GPUs to take advantage of that phenomenon, since they are extremely parallel. At 14-15 mm, the portable portion is actually a bit thicker (if smaller) than a new MacBook. Without the need for a keyboard or a clam shell design, that's probably quite a bit of usable space. I'm not sure why we should be surprised by claims of performance matching three year old systems.
- rubber_duck 10y ago
  >You say that like it's supposed to imply it's worse for some reason. It does because of thermals.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    Don't integrated units produce less heat? Do you mind expanding on this so I know what you are referring to?
    - rubber_duck 10y ago
      They produce less heat because they are an inferior versions of a standalone GPU. It's harder to extract heat from two chips in the same space (CPU and GPU) than two separate chips, also you're limited in chip space for transistor count. (I'm assuming inferior refers to compute performance and integrated means integrated on to the same chip btw., if that's not what you meant then ignore my comment).
      - kbenson 10y ago
        > They produce less heat because they are an inferior versions of a standalone GPU. Isn't that entirely based on what they integrate? The market has traditionally been such that integrated units are for cost, and so are paired with cheaper GPU components. I don't know of any technical reason that integrated units use low end GPU specs, just business reasons. Any normal market pressures would be different in this case, based on the size of the order and specific needs. > I'm assuming inferior refers to compute performance Inferior based on maximum possible compute performance, sure. The top of the line dedicated GPU will have more leeway to work with than the top of the line integrated, but we're hardly talking about top of the line, we're talking about matching three year old hardware.

by adrusi 10y ago

monk_e_boy 10y ago

Agreed. They show off Skyrim which is an xbox 360 game.

favorited 10y ago
Presumably it is the upcoming remaster, which is Xbox One & PS4.
pwthornton 10y ago
It appears to the the upcoming definitive edition remaster. It looks like the power is somewhere between Xbox 360 and Xbox One. The specs I saw showed it with 4 GBs of ram, which would put it clearly above Xbox 360/PS3 power and even a bit above the Wii U, which can do way better looking games than Xbox 360/PS3. We shall see what the final specs and games look like, but what they showed off looked pretty good. It won't be PS4 Pro or Xbox One Scorpio powerful, but it's a device you can use on the go (or for second-screen gaming, which might be the killer app here).

ben174 10y ago

There is a lot of speculation in the community that when docked, additional video processing will be available in the hardware within the dock. When undocked, they can scale down resolution and frame rate for the smaller screen.

macspoofing 10y ago
>There is a lot of speculation in the community that when docked, additional video processing will be available in the hardware within the dock. Doubt it. Not a trivial problem to solve technically and console pricing is inflexible - they need to sell this thing for under $400, and Nintendo hates subsidizing hardware.
- chx 10y ago
  USB C connector Alternate Mode can be used to carry PCIe signals (without Thunderbolt). Switching GPUs is a well solved problem for nVidia, they call it Optimus. By now this is a technically solved problem, no problems.
  - rtkwe 10y ago
    I don't think with the nVidia blog posts and the pictures of the dock that they're hiding a more powerful GPU in the dock. If it were I'd expect a larger dock to provide more cooling to the docked GPU and some mention of 2 GPUs or GPU switching in the nVidia blog post about the Switch.
    - chx 10y ago
      This I do not know; I was just commenting on "Not a trivial problem to solve technically".
  - macspoofing 10y ago
    >By now this is a technically solved problem, no problems. Is it? We're not talking about load balancing GPUs - we're talking about a GPU just disappearing underneath you (like when the user picks up the Switch), while maintaining context and dynamically lowering quality - I can't imagine that being a trivial problem. But that's not the major issue here. Nintendo is going to have to sell this thing for under $400. A mid-market smart-phone costs that much. Shipping a dock with a high performance GPU along with the actual portable isn't going to happen.
- jocro 10y ago
  One concept that seems feasible - if the portable device is vented but lacking airflow for cooling, power that airflow with fans in the dock. Then, when docked, overclock the chip (or underclock when undocked). This all presupposes, though, that the hardware they're packing in the portable unit is comparable to what's in the PS4/XBO or their newer equivalents.
white-flame 10y ago
It could be that the chip itself is throttled when in handheld mode, and the dock provides additional power and cooling, as an alternative take on that option.
jmkni 10y ago
The higher end Intel NUC's work this way, would be cool if this was true

kbenson 10y ago

> This is an integrated GPU You say that like it's supposed to imply it's worse for some reason. > battery-powered device with limited thermal regulation. The Xbox one and PS4 were both released about three years ago. Almost three and a half by the time the Switch is released. That's a long time for Moore's law to operate, and it's easier for GPUs to take advantage of that phenomenon, since they are extremely parallel. At 14-15 mm, the portable portion is actually a bit thicker (if smaller) than a new MacBook. Without the need for a keyboard or a clam shell design, that's probably quite a bit of usable space. I'm not sure why we should be surprised by claims of performance matching three year old systems.

rubber_duck 10y ago
>You say that like it's supposed to imply it's worse for some reason. It does because of thermals.
- kbenson 10y ago
  Don't integrated units produce less heat? Do you mind expanding on this so I know what you are referring to?
  - rubber_duck 10y ago
    They produce less heat because they are an inferior versions of a standalone GPU. It's harder to extract heat from two chips in the same space (CPU and GPU) than two separate chips, also you're limited in chip space for transistor count. (I'm assuming inferior refers to compute performance and integrated means integrated on to the same chip btw., if that's not what you meant then ignore my comment).
    - kbenson 10y ago
      > They produce less heat because they are an inferior versions of a standalone GPU. Isn't that entirely based on what they integrate? The market has traditionally been such that integrated units are for cost, and so are paired with cheaper GPU components. I don't know of any technical reason that integrated units use low end GPU specs, just business reasons. Any normal market pressures would be different in this case, based on the size of the order and specific needs. > I'm assuming inferior refers to compute performance Inferior based on maximum possible compute performance, sure. The top of the line dedicated GPU will have more leeway to work with than the top of the line integrated, but we're hardly talking about top of the line, we're talking about matching three year old hardware.