4 ms·

You can't do what you want, with a car you buy - even though this does not mean that it will be a lot cheaper :/ I'm more than willing to agree to this concept

You can't do what you want, with a car you buy - even though this does not mean that it will be a lot cheaper :/ I'm more than willing to agree to this concept, if for example, Tesla sends me a new top of the line model 3/s/x every year for around 5k-ish/yr - At that price point, I feel that they can tell me what I can / can't do with "their" car. However, now, they expect people to pay the full price of the car (anywhere between 31k to almost 150k) and then they get to dictate how I use the car. Given time, this sort of concept will be applied to everything "we" own. I mean, it's just getting started... In a few decades, you'd not really own anything - the house you live in, the devices that you use, everything will be a subscription service. While I look at it as a bleak / weird future, I love SaaS products in general over IaaS products, because it means, I don't have to put effort into stuff. And if that means, I'd never have to fix my car, or my house for example...is that a future the general population will have an issue with?

joering2 10y ago
> In a few decades, you'd not really own anything - the house you live in [...] Just to clarify, in the true meaning of the word "own", you never owned your house, and that goes to at least post WW2 times. If you believe you own your house simply because its paid off, then try not to pay property tax imposed on you by the county you live in. But don't be surprised if one year later Sheriff shows up at your "own" house doorstep with eviction team.
- FireBeyond 10y ago
  That's a facile example. You still own your house, but the government, as elected by the people, has decided that one of the ways to encourage/ enforce property tax payment is the right to use said property as collateral. You explicitly agree that you are obligated to do so, and laws, which aren't secret, divulge the possible consequences of failure to do so. This in no way diminishes ownership, any more than you parking the car that you own somewhere that it may be towed and impounded means that you somehow "never really owned it". If you want to talk about ownership of the -land- that's a different, tangential, kettle of fish.
  - joering2 10y ago
    I have not signed nor agreed on any such a thing. I got house from my grandpa who build it on his own land. So if anything I am forced into either paying the property tax or facing penalty of having my house closed down and put for bid. Call it anything but, please don't call it an ownership.
    - agentdrtran 10y ago
      You're a 'taxes are theft' person aren't you?
    - FireBeyond 10y ago
      I fear this is going down a rabbit hole, but nonetheless. You are, I suspect deliberately, attempting to obfuscate the issue of ownership. Here are some examples: - you legally own a gun. you use gun in commission of a crime. gun will be confiscated. - you legally own a vehicle. you use it in commission of a crime (whether as a getaway vehicle, or striking a pedestrian). car can be confiscated. Whether you think they SHOULD be or not, not paying taxes is considered a crime. That doesn't mean your ownership of the house, the car, the gun are any less valid, only that the government has determined that possible confiscation of said property is a viable punishment for violation of certain laws. If you want to carry that to the extreme - you own nothing, because the government can confiscate it. Which makes me wonder how your grandpa "owned" that land? How did he acquire it? You didn't sign or agree to obey the laws of the city, county, state or country you live in either. I presume that also means you are not beholden to those, either? As I said, I suspect this is a rabbit hole of twisted reasoning and logic that I don't overly care to get into, but the simple fact remains. Ownership of any object is tangential to the potential of being deprived of possession thereof.
      - joering2 10y ago
        > Whether you think they SHOULD be or not, not paying taxes is considered a crime That's fine so lock me up. But don't take over my property and sell it to the highest bidder. If they have a right to do so, I have to be naive to say "I own my house".
- ars 10y ago
  Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title - there are places in the US where this does exist. (In contrast to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple )

joering2 10y ago

> In a few decades, you'd not really own anything - the house you live in [...] Just to clarify, in the true meaning of the word "own", you never owned your house, and that goes to at least post WW2 times. If you believe you own your house simply because its paid off, then try not to pay property tax imposed on you by the county you live in. But don't be surprised if one year later Sheriff shows up at your "own" house doorstep with eviction team.

FireBeyond 10y ago
That's a facile example. You still own your house, but the government, as elected by the people, has decided that one of the ways to encourage/ enforce property tax payment is the right to use said property as collateral. You explicitly agree that you are obligated to do so, and laws, which aren't secret, divulge the possible consequences of failure to do so. This in no way diminishes ownership, any more than you parking the car that you own somewhere that it may be towed and impounded means that you somehow "never really owned it". If you want to talk about ownership of the -land- that's a different, tangential, kettle of fish.
- joering2 10y ago
  I have not signed nor agreed on any such a thing. I got house from my grandpa who build it on his own land. So if anything I am forced into either paying the property tax or facing penalty of having my house closed down and put for bid. Call it anything but, please don't call it an ownership.
  - agentdrtran 10y ago
    You're a 'taxes are theft' person aren't you?
  - FireBeyond 10y ago
    I fear this is going down a rabbit hole, but nonetheless. You are, I suspect deliberately, attempting to obfuscate the issue of ownership. Here are some examples: - you legally own a gun. you use gun in commission of a crime. gun will be confiscated. - you legally own a vehicle. you use it in commission of a crime (whether as a getaway vehicle, or striking a pedestrian). car can be confiscated. Whether you think they SHOULD be or not, not paying taxes is considered a crime. That doesn't mean your ownership of the house, the car, the gun are any less valid, only that the government has determined that possible confiscation of said property is a viable punishment for violation of certain laws. If you want to carry that to the extreme - you own nothing, because the government can confiscate it. Which makes me wonder how your grandpa "owned" that land? How did he acquire it? You didn't sign or agree to obey the laws of the city, county, state or country you live in either. I presume that also means you are not beholden to those, either? As I said, I suspect this is a rabbit hole of twisted reasoning and logic that I don't overly care to get into, but the simple fact remains. Ownership of any object is tangential to the potential of being deprived of possession thereof.
    - joering2 10y ago
      > Whether you think they SHOULD be or not, not paying taxes is considered a crime That's fine so lock me up. But don't take over my property and sell it to the highest bidder. If they have a right to do so, I have to be naive to say "I own my house".
ars 10y ago
Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title - there are places in the US where this does exist. (In contrast to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple )