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This isn't web development. You don't risk lives with your beta release First: Why do you always need to assume web dev is stupid. Or less impactful. Imagine a

by aws_ls 10y ago

This isn't web development. You don't risk lives with your beta release First: Why do you always need to assume web dev is stupid. Or less impactful. Imagine a bank website showing 10,000 <your currency> less in your account. I myself paid several customers a penalty/reimbursement, when because of our website, they suffered. And I am sure there are websites/apps which are more critical. Second: You are assuming, they have done a half-assed job and hurrying to release. If you look at the earlier thread[1], several people have explained, how Tesla has 100s of millions of kms of their customers driving footage, using which they have trained the AI/ML algos. So I won't be surprised if these cars can do well enough in the dark. Sebastian Thrun, one of the pioneers of self driving cars, recently has taken a turn to self driven cars just using cameras and AI. In his own words[2] he says, that we humans also just have our two eyes, so cameras should do the job well. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12748863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12748863 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTfEFnYxej8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTfEFnYxej8 (Audio is bad for upto 20 minutes, then its Okay) Edits: 100s of millions of kms of their customer can't --> can

vkou 10y ago
> First: Why do you always need to assume web dev is stupid. Or less impactful. Imagine a bank website showing 10,000 <your currency> less in your account. The impact of that, terrifying as it may be, is still significantly less then the impact of a self-driving-but-buggy vehicle into the side of a semi.
- aws_ls 10y ago
  I was arguing against the trivialization of web dev -- this isn't web development -- while I agree that self driven car is one of the highest level of critical. But that said, people can equally suffer, if not so visually, due to financial app bugs. I shudder to think of state of people who lost lot of money in hacks on MtGox and other Bitcoin exchanges for example.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  There was no net impact in that accident. It replaced three deaths which would have occurred without autopilot, so it was part of a net gain in lives. Perhaps that particular human was special and worth saving over the other two who were saved instead, but I am not aware of any reason to believe that.
  - vkou 10y ago
    > There was no net impact in that accident. Only after a particularly tortured interpretation of highway safety statistics. If you exclude pedestrian deaths (Few jaywalkers on the interstate), motorcycle deaths, deaths in conditions where autopilot cannot be used, and deaths due to collisions of lighter, less safe, older, or poorly-maintained automobiles, then regular highway death statistics start looking better then autopilot-enabled ones. [1] [2] Again, there's a great gap between the hype of Tesla, and the reality. [1] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601849/teslas-dubious-claims-about-autopilots-safety-record/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601849/teslas-dubious-cla... [2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2016/07/05/adding-some-statistical-perspective-to-tesla-autopilot-safety-claims/#78a909cd2f8f http://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2016/07/05/adding-...
irq11 10y ago
Well, for starters, the only thing Tesla has "released" here is a video. So there's that. I don't know if they hurried the release of the video. The real product launch is the sensor suite...and those haven't shipped in any quantity, yet. As for AI, there's no magical "algo" that solves the problem of an all-black video frame. Having more black video frames than anyone else doesn't exactly solve that problem. See also: rain, snow and fog. But finally, nobody said that web developers are stupid. Calm down. But it's completely fair to note that, however much money you lose for your customers with half-baked beta releases, you're still not killing them. The stakes are higher here. The expectations of proof are higher as well.
- aws_ls 10y ago
  there's no magical "algo" that solves the problem of an all-black video frame So do human eyes. I perhaps should have used the word night rather than dark. So basically it should work in the night also is my understanding. And I'm totally calm, and not angered :-). Just trying to make my point. Because I don't like arguments like - 'this is not rocket science', or 'this is not web development.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  According to the blog they are shipping in quantity now.
obastani 10y ago
AI/ML algos cannot magically guarantee safety, for example, deep nets are known to be very un-robust: https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6199 https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6199. We are not yet at the point where AI/ML based algos can be guaranteed to be safe.

by aws_ls 10y ago

vkou 10y ago

> First: Why do you always need to assume web dev is stupid. Or less impactful. Imagine a bank website showing 10,000 <your currency> less in your account. The impact of that, terrifying as it may be, is still significantly less then the impact of a self-driving-but-buggy vehicle into the side of a semi.

aws_ls 10y ago
I was arguing against the trivialization of web dev -- this isn't web development -- while I agree that self driven car is one of the highest level of critical. But that said, people can equally suffer, if not so visually, due to financial app bugs. I shudder to think of state of people who lost lot of money in hacks on MtGox and other Bitcoin exchanges for example.
erikpukinskis 10y ago
There was no net impact in that accident. It replaced three deaths which would have occurred without autopilot, so it was part of a net gain in lives. Perhaps that particular human was special and worth saving over the other two who were saved instead, but I am not aware of any reason to believe that.
- vkou 10y ago
  > There was no net impact in that accident. Only after a particularly tortured interpretation of highway safety statistics. If you exclude pedestrian deaths (Few jaywalkers on the interstate), motorcycle deaths, deaths in conditions where autopilot cannot be used, and deaths due to collisions of lighter, less safe, older, or poorly-maintained automobiles, then regular highway death statistics start looking better then autopilot-enabled ones. [1] [2] Again, there's a great gap between the hype of Tesla, and the reality. [1] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601849/teslas-dubious-claims-about-autopilots-safety-record/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601849/teslas-dubious-cla... [2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2016/07/05/adding-some-statistical-perspective-to-tesla-autopilot-safety-claims/#78a909cd2f8f http://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2016/07/05/adding-...

irq11 10y ago

Well, for starters, the only thing Tesla has "released" here is a video. So there's that. I don't know if they hurried the release of the video. The real product launch is the sensor suite...and those haven't shipped in any quantity, yet. As for AI, there's no magical "algo" that solves the problem of an all-black video frame. Having more black video frames than anyone else doesn't exactly solve that problem. See also: rain, snow and fog. But finally, nobody said that web developers are stupid. Calm down. But it's completely fair to note that, however much money you lose for your customers with half-baked beta releases, you're still not killing them. The stakes are higher here. The expectations of proof are higher as well.

aws_ls 10y ago
there's no magical "algo" that solves the problem of an all-black video frame So do human eyes. I perhaps should have used the word night rather than dark. So basically it should work in the night also is my understanding. And I'm totally calm, and not angered :-). Just trying to make my point. Because I don't like arguments like - 'this is not rocket science', or 'this is not web development.
erikpukinskis 10y ago
According to the blog they are shipping in quantity now.

obastani 10y ago

AI/ML algos cannot magically guarantee safety, for example, deep nets are known to be very un-robust: https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6199 https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6199. We are not yet at the point where AI/ML based algos can be guaranteed to be safe.