6 ms·

Probably not senile, but certainly a mental breakdown. Which makes 'seeing a doctor' easier said than done. She's not a gentle lady being tricked out of her cas

Probably not senile, but certainly a mental breakdown. Which makes 'seeing a doctor' easier said than done. She's not a gentle lady being tricked out of her cash, she's tenaciously ejecting her money to a dude she thinks she's going to marry, while everyone around her is making her miserable. The whole situation is beyond surreal.

logicallee 10y ago
Can you talk more about when and how many times they've met in person?
- nkrisc 10y ago
  I imagine she has almost certainly not met anyone in person, that's how these scams work.
  - logicallee 10y ago
    Sure, but how do you believe someone loves you and is going to marry you without seeing them? Buy her a ticket so she can find out
    - nkrisc 10y ago
      People believe all sorts of irrational and outlandish things without a shred of proof, or even with proof to the contrary.
      - logicallee 10y ago
        There is proof to the contrary that "startups work" and that working for equity is a good use of someone's time. I still believe it. It's kind of irrational and outlandish. When I work on startups with others, this isn't a scam. So your terms "irrational", "outlandish", "without a shred of proof" or with "proof to the contrary" is insufficient. You need to come up with a more polarizing differential that can differentiate between a dyed-in-the-wool scam and love amidst sketchy-ass finances.
        nkrisc 10y ago
        I'm afraid I don't see your point. You asked: > how do you believe someone loves you and is going to marry you without seeing them? How does one believe that? Well, they choose to. It might very well be irrational, it might be outlandish, yet they still choose to believe it. People choose to believe all sorts of outlandish things all the time. Sometimes they were right after all, sometimes not. Given that this instance perfectly fits established patterns of scams I think it's a perfectly fair assumption that this is a scam until proven otherwise.
        erikpukinskis 10y ago
        There's a difference between a low probability of success that has a net negative financial value (startups, lotteries, America's Cup bids) and fraud. In one case, there are just big risks that on average won't work out. In the other, there is no possibility for success because one party has no intention of following through on their promises. If the scammer were actually in love, and just taking the money with the intention of investing it, but consistently blowing it in Vegas due to a gambling addiction, that wouldn't be fraud because he's still being honest. It's the lying at issue, not the soundness of the investment. And frankly I don't see many people saying "take options at a random startup to get rich, that's a good financial investment". Have you?
        logicallee 10y ago
        >There's a difference between a low probability of success that has a net negative financial value (startups, lotteries, America's Cup bids) and fraud. That's not my point. if there's even a SINGLE person who is checking off all of the fraud checkmarks but is genuine, then it's more like a lottery. For example, the famous Fedex story (you can google) where Fedex didn't have just a few more weeks of cash runway and would have had to shutter as it tried to raise it's investment round, and the founder gambled in Vegas to make their fuel run. Google that story. 100% scammer red flags - except it's real. So, we have to differentiate. The mother in this equation is playing a lottery ticket that this particular person isn't a scammer. If there's even a single genuine story like that, anywhere, then that means it's a lottery ticket. So it's not as simple as you say. For your question at the end, yes, I have seen that. :)
  - joering2 10y ago
    I don't know what are "those" scams but many scammers go very far, as far as giving you their cellphone number that works and they pick up, and even meet you in person. There are youtube videos of scammers meeting people and then called out on lie they just leave. I would assume if she paid so much and still have money, she is priobably on scammers vip list so I wouldn't be suprised if multiple "lawyers" and other scums meet her and show her papers that all is good in regarding to her $3.5 MM, it just needs more time.
    - nkrisc 10y ago
      Oh wow. Most of the types of romance scams I've read about involve the scammers pretending to be people in other countries, inventing dilemmas that require money while romancing the victim. I assumed this to be the case, but it apparently is not. That is scarier.
      - joering2 10y ago
        No you are correct, but those usually end up when someone pays few hundred bucks. I assume getting $200,000 out of your victim puts him/her in a special category.
  - michael_h 10y ago
    No, she met someone in person, which made the whole thing a little more scary. They went out to dinner, twice in a single week. From what I can gather, she met someone, but I doubt it was the same guy she's talking to over txt.
    - logicallee 10y ago
      It's difficult. obviously if you were to intervene (for example by pretending to take an interest) to help, the scammer would realize what you are doing. you are saying that your mother is not senile, and is just (acting) 'stupid'. But if this is the case, why don't you ask her about the details (excuses and so forth)? Has she told you things like, "Yes, I realize that there are scams, but this is not one of them." Is she otherwise intelligent? If she is intelligent and you got as far as her saying, "Yes, I realize there are scams, but this is not oen of them" then you could discuss rationally how you know... the scammer could also kind of believe it from their end.
    - yesbabyyes 10y ago
      I've become acquainted with a few 419ers (Nigerian) during trips to Ghana (not the big boys, who are without fail sleaze bags, but the grunts, some of whom are very nice in person) and have done quite some research on how they and the scams work. When it comes to 419ers, they have a wide network across the world. They can get a guy to pick up cash or meet someone, today if need be. It might not even be a Nigerian, they work with other people as well. Last time I was there, a couple of guys tried to entice me into joining them. Said I would be very successful, I could act as a UN attaché or whatever. Then they told me about a guy from somewhere in SE Asia, don't remember which country but I guess they have debtor's jail, because he had indebted himself and risked prison. He managed to get out and went to Ghana to try and get his money back. He turned out to start working with them instead, a couple of months later he had a mansion and three luxury cars. There are all kinds of crazy stories. The thing is, most of the scammers and the victims are similar (not the romance scam but the Nigerian letters). They are after a quick buck and don't care much for morals (that's why the money is always someone else's, since by accepting you are entering a conspiracy with the scammer, and you are hesitant to tell someone about it). They live large and spend a lot of money, mostly on worthless consumer stuff like expensive liquor, cars, watches and so on. So the money goes back to the West (North, really) again. I tried to convince a guy I have come to know a little to invest instead, to build something in his community. He told me about a scammer meeting his client (that's what they call the victims) in Hamburg. He picked up half a million Euro in cash. Took it to buy trucks and other machinery and sent it to Ghana and set up a profitable leasing service in Tema, the main harbour. Another guy built a small but popular mall. I doubt most of the con artists have a good idea of what happens to their clients though, or that they think about it much. The workers are young and enthusiastic, and the big boys don't give a damn. Many victims turn mad, happened to a friend's uncle who got hooked way back when they sent faxes. The trick is simple yet powerful - obviously the letters are made to funnel gullible people, but also greedy people with low morals. This would help the scammer justify it to himself. Another justification is that their countries have already been robbed for centuries. By entering a conspiracy, the client will be hesitant to tell anyone about it. After that, it's just the sunk costs fallacy, or "sending good money after bad". Every time the stakes are higher, but the choice is to keep believing you will get paid or say bye bye to even more money than you're sending, and accept the truth. It might also partly be an exploit of the looser bonds between people, where many of us have individual economy and are reticent to share our financials/earning/spending with others, even close friends and family, and especially if we suspect they might disagree. Scammers are also quick to exploit current events. Last time I went to visit, one guy showed me a con he was working on which was a romance con. He acted as a British officer stationed in Iraq, who had come across some of all of the lost billions of dollars the US brought there in cash. There are a lot of 419ers in Ghana, disliked by many but they spend in bars and hotels. They tend to live on credit though (the workers), only (hopefully) paying their bills after a payout. I'm not sure about the central police department, but the local police are definitely bought off. I know them via the innkeeper, a Ghanaian who don't like them much but they give him business. It's a crazy world.

logicallee 10y ago

Can you talk more about when and how many times they've met in person?

nkrisc 10y ago
I imagine she has almost certainly not met anyone in person, that's how these scams work.
- logicallee 10y ago
  Sure, but how do you believe someone loves you and is going to marry you without seeing them? Buy her a ticket so she can find out
  - nkrisc 10y ago
    People believe all sorts of irrational and outlandish things without a shred of proof, or even with proof to the contrary.
    - logicallee 10y ago
      There is proof to the contrary that "startups work" and that working for equity is a good use of someone's time. I still believe it. It's kind of irrational and outlandish. When I work on startups with others, this isn't a scam. So your terms "irrational", "outlandish", "without a shred of proof" or with "proof to the contrary" is insufficient. You need to come up with a more polarizing differential that can differentiate between a dyed-in-the-wool scam and love amidst sketchy-ass finances.
      - nkrisc 10y ago
        I'm afraid I don't see your point. You asked: > how do you believe someone loves you and is going to marry you without seeing them? How does one believe that? Well, they choose to. It might very well be irrational, it might be outlandish, yet they still choose to believe it. People choose to believe all sorts of outlandish things all the time. Sometimes they were right after all, sometimes not. Given that this instance perfectly fits established patterns of scams I think it's a perfectly fair assumption that this is a scam until proven otherwise.
      - erikpukinskis 10y ago
        There's a difference between a low probability of success that has a net negative financial value (startups, lotteries, America's Cup bids) and fraud. In one case, there are just big risks that on average won't work out. In the other, there is no possibility for success because one party has no intention of following through on their promises. If the scammer were actually in love, and just taking the money with the intention of investing it, but consistently blowing it in Vegas due to a gambling addiction, that wouldn't be fraud because he's still being honest. It's the lying at issue, not the soundness of the investment. And frankly I don't see many people saying "take options at a random startup to get rich, that's a good financial investment". Have you?
        logicallee 10y ago
        >There's a difference between a low probability of success that has a net negative financial value (startups, lotteries, America's Cup bids) and fraud. That's not my point. if there's even a SINGLE person who is checking off all of the fraud checkmarks but is genuine, then it's more like a lottery. For example, the famous Fedex story (you can google) where Fedex didn't have just a few more weeks of cash runway and would have had to shutter as it tried to raise it's investment round, and the founder gambled in Vegas to make their fuel run. Google that story. 100% scammer red flags - except it's real. So, we have to differentiate. The mother in this equation is playing a lottery ticket that this particular person isn't a scammer. If there's even a single genuine story like that, anywhere, then that means it's a lottery ticket. So it's not as simple as you say. For your question at the end, yes, I have seen that. :)
- joering2 10y ago
  I don't know what are "those" scams but many scammers go very far, as far as giving you their cellphone number that works and they pick up, and even meet you in person. There are youtube videos of scammers meeting people and then called out on lie they just leave. I would assume if she paid so much and still have money, she is priobably on scammers vip list so I wouldn't be suprised if multiple "lawyers" and other scums meet her and show her papers that all is good in regarding to her $3.5 MM, it just needs more time.
  - nkrisc 10y ago
    Oh wow. Most of the types of romance scams I've read about involve the scammers pretending to be people in other countries, inventing dilemmas that require money while romancing the victim. I assumed this to be the case, but it apparently is not. That is scarier.
    - joering2 10y ago
      No you are correct, but those usually end up when someone pays few hundred bucks. I assume getting $200,000 out of your victim puts him/her in a special category.
- michael_h 10y ago
  No, she met someone in person, which made the whole thing a little more scary. They went out to dinner, twice in a single week. From what I can gather, she met someone, but I doubt it was the same guy she's talking to over txt.
  - logicallee 10y ago
    It's difficult. obviously if you were to intervene (for example by pretending to take an interest) to help, the scammer would realize what you are doing. you are saying that your mother is not senile, and is just (acting) 'stupid'. But if this is the case, why don't you ask her about the details (excuses and so forth)? Has she told you things like, "Yes, I realize that there are scams, but this is not one of them." Is she otherwise intelligent? If she is intelligent and you got as far as her saying, "Yes, I realize there are scams, but this is not oen of them" then you could discuss rationally how you know... the scammer could also kind of believe it from their end.
  - yesbabyyes 10y ago
    I've become acquainted with a few 419ers (Nigerian) during trips to Ghana (not the big boys, who are without fail sleaze bags, but the grunts, some of whom are very nice in person) and have done quite some research on how they and the scams work. When it comes to 419ers, they have a wide network across the world. They can get a guy to pick up cash or meet someone, today if need be. It might not even be a Nigerian, they work with other people as well. Last time I was there, a couple of guys tried to entice me into joining them. Said I would be very successful, I could act as a UN attaché or whatever. Then they told me about a guy from somewhere in SE Asia, don't remember which country but I guess they have debtor's jail, because he had indebted himself and risked prison. He managed to get out and went to Ghana to try and get his money back. He turned out to start working with them instead, a couple of months later he had a mansion and three luxury cars. There are all kinds of crazy stories. The thing is, most of the scammers and the victims are similar (not the romance scam but the Nigerian letters). They are after a quick buck and don't care much for morals (that's why the money is always someone else's, since by accepting you are entering a conspiracy with the scammer, and you are hesitant to tell someone about it). They live large and spend a lot of money, mostly on worthless consumer stuff like expensive liquor, cars, watches and so on. So the money goes back to the West (North, really) again. I tried to convince a guy I have come to know a little to invest instead, to build something in his community. He told me about a scammer meeting his client (that's what they call the victims) in Hamburg. He picked up half a million Euro in cash. Took it to buy trucks and other machinery and sent it to Ghana and set up a profitable leasing service in Tema, the main harbour. Another guy built a small but popular mall. I doubt most of the con artists have a good idea of what happens to their clients though, or that they think about it much. The workers are young and enthusiastic, and the big boys don't give a damn. Many victims turn mad, happened to a friend's uncle who got hooked way back when they sent faxes. The trick is simple yet powerful - obviously the letters are made to funnel gullible people, but also greedy people with low morals. This would help the scammer justify it to himself. Another justification is that their countries have already been robbed for centuries. By entering a conspiracy, the client will be hesitant to tell anyone about it. After that, it's just the sunk costs fallacy, or "sending good money after bad". Every time the stakes are higher, but the choice is to keep believing you will get paid or say bye bye to even more money than you're sending, and accept the truth. It might also partly be an exploit of the looser bonds between people, where many of us have individual economy and are reticent to share our financials/earning/spending with others, even close friends and family, and especially if we suspect they might disagree. Scammers are also quick to exploit current events. Last time I went to visit, one guy showed me a con he was working on which was a romance con. He acted as a British officer stationed in Iraq, who had come across some of all of the lost billions of dollars the US brought there in cash. There are a lot of 419ers in Ghana, disliked by many but they spend in bars and hotels. They tend to live on credit though (the workers), only (hopefully) paying their bills after a payout. I'm not sure about the central police department, but the local police are definitely bought off. I know them via the innkeeper, a Ghanaian who don't like them much but they give him business. It's a crazy world.