7 ms·

I don't fully understand your situation, and it must be horrible and frustrating and painful, but there must be some way you can get through to her?

easytiger 10y ago
Any court will let you take power over her finances. This is a clear cut case. Just ask any bloody lawer
- michael_h 10y ago
  No, they won't. We can take over her finances if she is declared mentally incompetent. She's not mentally incompetent - she understands everything, but she just disagrees with the crucial bit: that the dude doesn't love her and is scamming her. As the judge told us yesterday: we are walking a fine line, taking over another person's autonomy, but it's not illegal to fall in love and do colossally stupid things.
  - easytiger 10y ago
    I guess the jurisdiction depends. In the UK you'd stand a very good chance of intervening. Indeed oddly enough there was an article about just this yesterday in the UK, i'll see if I can dig it out
    - hilop 10y ago
      UK is pro intervention, but they also go too far seizing children from families. It's impossible to get right in every case.
    - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
      If signed Power of Attorney paperwork exists already, the Court of Protection will grant it unless another family member objects. You can literally buy the paperwork in supermarkets. Get it signed by the donor and witnessed by anyone at all, and you're set. If there is no signed Power of Attorney paperwork, you have to persuade the Court that the person is no longer mentally competent to look after their own affairs. Handing all of their money to a scammer counts as evidence towards that. But it's not absolutely guaranteed. There would probably be lawyers involved, and the Grant of PoA would be subject to messy and potentially expensive oversight by the Court. Basically it's a good idea to get the paperwork ready well ahead of time, so you're not in a situation where you have to apply for a grant against a very confused person's wishes.
  - zyrthofar 10y ago
    But wouldn't that mean that you and your SO would inherit these debts when she dies, and there's nothing you can do about this? That's truly awful :(.
    - michael_h 10y ago
      I don't think you can inherit cash loan debt. You can inherit property that is still under mortgage (no problem there), but then it's a choice: keep the house and pay the mortgage debt or sell the house/give it to the bank.
    - tzakrajs 10y ago
      Maybe in a country where such a dashed thing is possible, but I believe the OP is in the US.
    - voxic11 10y ago
      In the United States and most countries I'm aware of debts cannot be inherited.
      - kba 10y ago
        I think most places, debts can be inherited voluntarily, but you can't cherry pick. If your dead aunt had a Mercedes 190SL, but also owes $200,000, you can either take both or nothing. But yeah – they won't end up in debt themselves, unless they choose to.
        gambiting 10y ago
        That's exactly how this works. Either you take all of it, debts included or nothing. Or in some countries you let lawyers sort it out first, where they make sure all debts are paid off, they take their fee, and then you inherit whatever is left.
        vidarh 10y ago
        Yeah, my dad died in debt (Norway), and we were able to pick any personal effects of minor monetary value without issue, and then make the choice whether to take the rest of his assets and the debts, or neither. It only really becomes an issue if you have a strong personal attachment to assets that have high monetary value, like e.g. perhaps your childhood home - otherwise it boils down to a financial consideration.
  - MichaelBurge 10y ago
    It might be too late now, but I wonder if you could've convinced her to put the money into a trust and have it slowly distributed to her over the remainder of her life. At the very least, whatever enjoyment she's getting out of helping this person could be stretched out for decades, and it reduces the risk she'll be out on the streets with no options. And if the story is the guy is in debt, usually creditors are willing to negotiate a repayment plan, so it shouldn't be too hard of a sell. You could even say the scammer will benefit, since he won't get taxed as much doing it this way. Depending on the exact terms, you might be able to fit in a conditional clause on the scammer only receiving money while they're married. Which she shouldn't oppose, since it's the plan; but a scammer would oppose.
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
      > It might be too late now, but I wonder if you could've convinced her to put the money into a trust and have it slowly distributed to her over the remainder of her life. At which point? Before meeting her paramour, she wouldn't have much incentive to lock her money away from herself. (Would you agree to this?) And afterwards, well, he really needs that money...
  - logicallee 10y ago
    (read to the end, I am not making the analogy you think.) In the country where I was born, in my personal opinion (so this is not a neutral comment) startups are considered scams. Actually a few people elsewhere have expressed similar opinions. So, when you and an "online friend" get together and spend your own time and money, they consider it a scam. Like, if you are working with/for someone, they should be paying you! No concept of equity etc. Now as we know, many stqrtups coasted by on "binders full of credit cards", were colossal risks. Adults have the right to do that. Let's say someone tried to "get through to me" that there is NO SUCH THING AS SUCCESSFULLY RAISING MONEY OR A SUCCESSFUL EXIT. The problem is, they're wrong. There is such a thing. So when you look at your mother's case - she disagrees with you. You are saying "this man is just lying to her" but she says, "no, no". Well, ask her: does he talk about meeting her? Does he make plans to meet her? (I hope so.) Have her plan a surprise trip to see him. It doesn't take much money to fly anywhere in the world. If he is a scammer he will not want to see her under any circumstances. That will tell her all she needs to know. What I mean is that you have to make her do something that is a differential between the two possibilities.
    - alimw 10y ago
      I'm not sure about the start-up analogy here, but it seems a good idea to me to encourage your mother-in-law to pay a visit to her supposed romantic interest.
      - logicallee 10y ago
        What I mean by the analogy is that people outside of the startup can have the same feeling about the startup entrepreneur (e.g. thinking they've been mired up in a scam.) the difference is there isn't one in the startup case. So do something - like visit the love interest - that differentiates between these cases.
        TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
        Scammers can be very persuasive in person, so it's not a given that the scammer will ignore her. I know someone in a similar situation. She's been abroad to see her "love" in Egypt regularly, and he's very attentive when she's there. Of course they're planning to get married. Of course it's love. What else would it be? Works on guys too. I know someone else who has given rather a lot of money to an East European woman. I don't think they'll ever meet, because most East European women in these scams are actually criminal gangs. But we'll see. Also, it's worth considering that these scams are marketing funnels designed to select the most gullible people and filter out everyone else. So the victims are self-selecting, because the scams are designed to find people with their particular psychological weaknesses.
michael_h 10y ago
The first day he messaged her, we told her it was a scam to take window's money. Four months later, when we discovered she had been talking to him in the intervening months, we showed her a few websites that detail exactly how the romance scam works (matching her situation exactly). Last weekend, when we found out all of her money was gone, we had the police and adult protective services come out and tell her point blank that she was being scammed. She listens, agrees, and then sends him more money.
- whiddershins 10y ago
  There's an interesting concept I read about, how members of doomsday cults tend to believe MORE strongly after the doomsday date passes and everything is shown to be false. It's something about cognitive dissonance. I wonder if there is a known way to convince someone who is in this state. Cult debunkers and such might have thoughts?
  - kba 10y ago
    William Miller predicted Jesus' return in the year 1843. When that didn't happen, he adjusted his calculations to mean March 21, 1844. When that failed, it became October 22, 1844. He kept modifying his prediction whenever it failed. You'd think being constantly proven wrong would make people stop believing him. That's how the Seventh-day Adventist Church was started. A church that today has more than 18 million members. You can't reason people out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      This is also how the JW's started, and frankly continue. The simple, sad reality is: People mostly believe what they want to believe.
      - hilop 10y ago
        Once the snowball starts rolling, the later generations don't care much for the ridiculousness founding myths. It just becomes a traditional culture. Same for all religions, and heck, even nations
n72 10y ago
In my father's case (which sounds similar to micheal_h's), the problem is that the more you give away the more difficult it become to admit it's a scam since you have to admit both that the love you're looking for doesn't exist as well as the fact that you've been a complete idiot. It's a vicious cycle.
- michael_h 10y ago
  Absolutely. I've heard the phrase "If I quit now, I'll have nothing" about fifty times this week.

easytiger 10y ago

Any court will let you take power over her finances. This is a clear cut case. Just ask any bloody lawer

michael_h 10y ago
No, they won't. We can take over her finances if she is declared mentally incompetent. She's not mentally incompetent - she understands everything, but she just disagrees with the crucial bit: that the dude doesn't love her and is scamming her. As the judge told us yesterday: we are walking a fine line, taking over another person's autonomy, but it's not illegal to fall in love and do colossally stupid things.
- easytiger 10y ago
  I guess the jurisdiction depends. In the UK you'd stand a very good chance of intervening. Indeed oddly enough there was an article about just this yesterday in the UK, i'll see if I can dig it out
  - hilop 10y ago
    UK is pro intervention, but they also go too far seizing children from families. It's impossible to get right in every case.
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    If signed Power of Attorney paperwork exists already, the Court of Protection will grant it unless another family member objects. You can literally buy the paperwork in supermarkets. Get it signed by the donor and witnessed by anyone at all, and you're set. If there is no signed Power of Attorney paperwork, you have to persuade the Court that the person is no longer mentally competent to look after their own affairs. Handing all of their money to a scammer counts as evidence towards that. But it's not absolutely guaranteed. There would probably be lawyers involved, and the Grant of PoA would be subject to messy and potentially expensive oversight by the Court. Basically it's a good idea to get the paperwork ready well ahead of time, so you're not in a situation where you have to apply for a grant against a very confused person's wishes.
- zyrthofar 10y ago
  But wouldn't that mean that you and your SO would inherit these debts when she dies, and there's nothing you can do about this? That's truly awful :(.
  - michael_h 10y ago
    I don't think you can inherit cash loan debt. You can inherit property that is still under mortgage (no problem there), but then it's a choice: keep the house and pay the mortgage debt or sell the house/give it to the bank.
  - tzakrajs 10y ago
    Maybe in a country where such a dashed thing is possible, but I believe the OP is in the US.
  - voxic11 10y ago
    In the United States and most countries I'm aware of debts cannot be inherited.
    - kba 10y ago
      I think most places, debts can be inherited voluntarily, but you can't cherry pick. If your dead aunt had a Mercedes 190SL, but also owes $200,000, you can either take both or nothing. But yeah – they won't end up in debt themselves, unless they choose to.
      - gambiting 10y ago
        That's exactly how this works. Either you take all of it, debts included or nothing. Or in some countries you let lawyers sort it out first, where they make sure all debts are paid off, they take their fee, and then you inherit whatever is left.
      - vidarh 10y ago
        Yeah, my dad died in debt (Norway), and we were able to pick any personal effects of minor monetary value without issue, and then make the choice whether to take the rest of his assets and the debts, or neither. It only really becomes an issue if you have a strong personal attachment to assets that have high monetary value, like e.g. perhaps your childhood home - otherwise it boils down to a financial consideration.
- MichaelBurge 10y ago
  It might be too late now, but I wonder if you could've convinced her to put the money into a trust and have it slowly distributed to her over the remainder of her life. At the very least, whatever enjoyment she's getting out of helping this person could be stretched out for decades, and it reduces the risk she'll be out on the streets with no options. And if the story is the guy is in debt, usually creditors are willing to negotiate a repayment plan, so it shouldn't be too hard of a sell. You could even say the scammer will benefit, since he won't get taxed as much doing it this way. Depending on the exact terms, you might be able to fit in a conditional clause on the scammer only receiving money while they're married. Which she shouldn't oppose, since it's the plan; but a scammer would oppose.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    > It might be too late now, but I wonder if you could've convinced her to put the money into a trust and have it slowly distributed to her over the remainder of her life. At which point? Before meeting her paramour, she wouldn't have much incentive to lock her money away from herself. (Would you agree to this?) And afterwards, well, he really needs that money...
- logicallee 10y ago
  (read to the end, I am not making the analogy you think.) In the country where I was born, in my personal opinion (so this is not a neutral comment) startups are considered scams. Actually a few people elsewhere have expressed similar opinions. So, when you and an "online friend" get together and spend your own time and money, they consider it a scam. Like, if you are working with/for someone, they should be paying you! No concept of equity etc. Now as we know, many stqrtups coasted by on "binders full of credit cards", were colossal risks. Adults have the right to do that. Let's say someone tried to "get through to me" that there is NO SUCH THING AS SUCCESSFULLY RAISING MONEY OR A SUCCESSFUL EXIT. The problem is, they're wrong. There is such a thing. So when you look at your mother's case - she disagrees with you. You are saying "this man is just lying to her" but she says, "no, no". Well, ask her: does he talk about meeting her? Does he make plans to meet her? (I hope so.) Have her plan a surprise trip to see him. It doesn't take much money to fly anywhere in the world. If he is a scammer he will not want to see her under any circumstances. That will tell her all she needs to know. What I mean is that you have to make her do something that is a differential between the two possibilities.
  - alimw 10y ago
    I'm not sure about the start-up analogy here, but it seems a good idea to me to encourage your mother-in-law to pay a visit to her supposed romantic interest.
    - logicallee 10y ago
      What I mean by the analogy is that people outside of the startup can have the same feeling about the startup entrepreneur (e.g. thinking they've been mired up in a scam.) the difference is there isn't one in the startup case. So do something - like visit the love interest - that differentiates between these cases.
      - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
        Scammers can be very persuasive in person, so it's not a given that the scammer will ignore her. I know someone in a similar situation. She's been abroad to see her "love" in Egypt regularly, and he's very attentive when she's there. Of course they're planning to get married. Of course it's love. What else would it be? Works on guys too. I know someone else who has given rather a lot of money to an East European woman. I don't think they'll ever meet, because most East European women in these scams are actually criminal gangs. But we'll see. Also, it's worth considering that these scams are marketing funnels designed to select the most gullible people and filter out everyone else. So the victims are self-selecting, because the scams are designed to find people with their particular psychological weaknesses.

michael_h 10y ago

The first day he messaged her, we told her it was a scam to take window's money. Four months later, when we discovered she had been talking to him in the intervening months, we showed her a few websites that detail exactly how the romance scam works (matching her situation exactly). Last weekend, when we found out all of her money was gone, we had the police and adult protective services come out and tell her point blank that she was being scammed. She listens, agrees, and then sends him more money.

whiddershins 10y ago
There's an interesting concept I read about, how members of doomsday cults tend to believe MORE strongly after the doomsday date passes and everything is shown to be false. It's something about cognitive dissonance. I wonder if there is a known way to convince someone who is in this state. Cult debunkers and such might have thoughts?
- kba 10y ago
  William Miller predicted Jesus' return in the year 1843. When that didn't happen, he adjusted his calculations to mean March 21, 1844. When that failed, it became October 22, 1844. He kept modifying his prediction whenever it failed. You'd think being constantly proven wrong would make people stop believing him. That's how the Seventh-day Adventist Church was started. A church that today has more than 18 million members. You can't reason people out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    This is also how the JW's started, and frankly continue. The simple, sad reality is: People mostly believe what they want to believe.
    - hilop 10y ago
      Once the snowball starts rolling, the later generations don't care much for the ridiculousness founding myths. It just becomes a traditional culture. Same for all religions, and heck, even nations

n72 10y ago

In my father's case (which sounds similar to micheal_h's), the problem is that the more you give away the more difficult it become to admit it's a scam since you have to admit both that the love you're looking for doesn't exist as well as the fact that you've been a complete idiot. It's a vicious cycle.

michael_h 10y ago
Absolutely. I've heard the phrase "If I quit now, I'll have nothing" about fifty times this week.