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By your logic prosecuting international computer crime wouldn't be possible. How do you expect that to work out in practice? Also, he was arrested in the Czech

by plugger 10y ago

By your logic prosecuting international computer crime wouldn't be possible. How do you expect that to work out in practice? Also, he was arrested in the Czech Republic, not Russia. The Czech Republic has an extradition treaty with the US that existed long before the Internet did. This isn't rocket appliances, it's how our world's nation state system works. Sure, he probably shouldn't get 20 years and should receive competent legal representation. But to allow anyone to hack computer systems in the US because that person is not a US citizen and not in the US is borderline laughable.

codedokode 10y ago
The current system is asymmetric. If US can extradite people from other countries for something they do on the Internet, why Russia, China or Iran cannot? US is showing a bad example here. Once some governments get more power they will want to do this too. This is actually a display of power by US. Maybe there should be some international agreements on how to deal with such cross-border crimes but they should be discussed and agreed upon by many countries. And I don't like this anyway. I would rather prefer having american or russian systems disconnected from other countries than extraditing people into a foreign country to judge them by foreign laws.
- plugger 10y ago
  > why Russia, China or Iran cannot? But they can. They need preexisting extradition agreements and it's all good. And the system isn't asymmetric. By their nature extradition agreements are bilateral and therefore symmetric. How has Russia handled extradition requests from the UK for Litvinenko's accused murderers? That strikes me as a display of power by Russia. Would you agree? > Maybe there should be some international agreements on how to deal with such cross-border crimes but they should be discussed and agreed upon by many countries. They're called bilateral extradition treaties. That's exactly what's being leveraged here. > I would rather prefer having american or russian systems disconnected from other countries than extraditing people into a foreign country to judge them by foreign laws. And I would rather people not hack systems for financial gain. I'd also like daily rainbows and a unicorn to ride to and from work.
  - codedokode 10y ago
    If you want to build an analogy the display of power by Russia would be if it requested to extradite Litvinenko for trial and UK would comply (I don't know if they tried to do it). > But they can. They need preexisting extradition agreements and it's all good. Then let's wait to see whether muslim countries can make such treaties and start judging westerners posting inappropriate jokes about Allah on Facebook. Such practice will just lead to a situation when international travel will become too dangerous and you'll have to consult a lawyer before going abroad.
    - plugger 10y ago
      > If you want to build an analogy the display of power by Russia would be if it requested to extradite Litvinenko for trial and UK would comply (I don't know if they tried to do it). If you don't know if they tried then why even bring it up, especially since Litvinenko was killed by Russian Intelligence? Speaking of which, how do you feel about a Russian citizen being murdered by other Russian citizens in a foreign country? Does that concern you? Isn't THAT wrong? Obviously this person's rights for a fair trial was violated. As he was a Russian citizen, shouldn't he be judged in Russia instead of being murdered by the state?
      - codedokode 10y ago
        Of course that is wrong. Sadly if he was really murdered by government agents and even if they were caught they probably would not serve the full sentence and would be exchanged for some British spy.
    - Kalium 10y ago
      In general, extradition treaties only cover acts considered criminal by both countries. Thus the situation you fear is neatly prevented.
codedokode 10y ago
> But to allow anyone to hack computer systems in the US because that person is not a US citizen and not in the US is borderline laughable. NSA does hacking every day so can other countries extradite and prosecute its employees?
- plugger 10y ago
  As does China, Russia, Israel, England, France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and pretty much everyone else in the first world. What's your point? Comparing the actions of nation states to criminal enterprises, while fun, isn't really valid, especially when it comes to prosecution.
  - codedokode 10y ago
    The problem here is that it is US who decides whether a foreign person is a criminal or not. The laws can be different in different countries and as I wrote above, posting a picture of Allah can be legal in one country and a serious crime in another. People even were killed for publishing such pictures.
    - plugger 10y ago
      The problem here is that a Russian citizen targeted and hacked numerous US based computer systems. If an American citizen was hacking Russian computers and was caught in China I'm pretty confident that person would end up in Russia. I don't think you're being realistic here. Sure, differing laws can be an issue IF they aren't covered under the extradition treaty between the two countries. How can you not see this?
  - codedokode 10y ago
    From a point of view of victim I see no big difference between actions of nation state or a criminal. Should not they be treated equally?
    - plugger 10y ago

by plugger 10y ago

codedokode 10y ago

The current system is asymmetric. If US can extradite people from other countries for something they do on the Internet, why Russia, China or Iran cannot? US is showing a bad example here. Once some governments get more power they will want to do this too. This is actually a display of power by US. Maybe there should be some international agreements on how to deal with such cross-border crimes but they should be discussed and agreed upon by many countries. And I don't like this anyway. I would rather prefer having american or russian systems disconnected from other countries than extraditing people into a foreign country to judge them by foreign laws.

plugger 10y ago
> why Russia, China or Iran cannot? But they can. They need preexisting extradition agreements and it's all good. And the system isn't asymmetric. By their nature extradition agreements are bilateral and therefore symmetric. How has Russia handled extradition requests from the UK for Litvinenko's accused murderers? That strikes me as a display of power by Russia. Would you agree? > Maybe there should be some international agreements on how to deal with such cross-border crimes but they should be discussed and agreed upon by many countries. They're called bilateral extradition treaties. That's exactly what's being leveraged here. > I would rather prefer having american or russian systems disconnected from other countries than extraditing people into a foreign country to judge them by foreign laws. And I would rather people not hack systems for financial gain. I'd also like daily rainbows and a unicorn to ride to and from work.
- codedokode 10y ago
  If you want to build an analogy the display of power by Russia would be if it requested to extradite Litvinenko for trial and UK would comply (I don't know if they tried to do it). > But they can. They need preexisting extradition agreements and it's all good. Then let's wait to see whether muslim countries can make such treaties and start judging westerners posting inappropriate jokes about Allah on Facebook. Such practice will just lead to a situation when international travel will become too dangerous and you'll have to consult a lawyer before going abroad.
  - plugger 10y ago
    > If you want to build an analogy the display of power by Russia would be if it requested to extradite Litvinenko for trial and UK would comply (I don't know if they tried to do it). If you don't know if they tried then why even bring it up, especially since Litvinenko was killed by Russian Intelligence? Speaking of which, how do you feel about a Russian citizen being murdered by other Russian citizens in a foreign country? Does that concern you? Isn't THAT wrong? Obviously this person's rights for a fair trial was violated. As he was a Russian citizen, shouldn't he be judged in Russia instead of being murdered by the state?
    - codedokode 10y ago
      Of course that is wrong. Sadly if he was really murdered by government agents and even if they were caught they probably would not serve the full sentence and would be exchanged for some British spy.
  - Kalium 10y ago
    In general, extradition treaties only cover acts considered criminal by both countries. Thus the situation you fear is neatly prevented.

codedokode 10y ago

> But to allow anyone to hack computer systems in the US because that person is not a US citizen and not in the US is borderline laughable. NSA does hacking every day so can other countries extradite and prosecute its employees?

plugger 10y ago
As does China, Russia, Israel, England, France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and pretty much everyone else in the first world. What's your point? Comparing the actions of nation states to criminal enterprises, while fun, isn't really valid, especially when it comes to prosecution.
- codedokode 10y ago
  The problem here is that it is US who decides whether a foreign person is a criminal or not. The laws can be different in different countries and as I wrote above, posting a picture of Allah can be legal in one country and a serious crime in another. People even were killed for publishing such pictures.
  - plugger 10y ago
    The problem here is that a Russian citizen targeted and hacked numerous US based computer systems. If an American citizen was hacking Russian computers and was caught in China I'm pretty confident that person would end up in Russia. I don't think you're being realistic here. Sure, differing laws can be an issue IF they aren't covered under the extradition treaty between the two countries. How can you not see this?
- codedokode 10y ago
  From a point of view of victim I see no big difference between actions of nation state or a criminal. Should not they be treated equally?
  - plugger 10y ago