6 ms·

Nah, the other companies will slap them on too. People need to fight this BS.

by serge2k 10y ago

femto 10y ago
Cue Stallman. This is precisely the motivation for GNU software. How long before GNU (or other prxoy) has an autonomous driving project? Part of the issue is that the dataset is as important as the software. First step would seem to be the construction of a "GNU" hardware pack for autonomous driving and people start driving around with it mounted on their cars, gathering (GPL'd) data.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I'd rather lease a fully autonomous Tesla out in the next 2-3 years in a ridesharing fleet, not wait 5-10 years for an open source version.
  - stass 10y ago
    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." This seems like an appropriate quote here. If we want to protect our rights we should not settle for conveniences. The software world in 90s is a good example of what happens.
    - winstonewert 10y ago
      People who sanctimoniously insist that other people are engaging in the wrong trade-off between liberty and safety and thus deserve to lose their liberty and safety are the worst enemies of liberty and safety.
      - snrplfth 10y ago
        True. And besides, what restriction on liberty is there here, really? If you don't like Tesla's terms, don't buy a Tesla.
        serge2k 10y ago
        It's precedent really. One company does something to fuck over consumers and the others hold their breath for a minute to see what happens, then stampede to do it too. It's why we have binding arbitration agreements and no right to class action lawsuits in EULAs for game consoles. It's why we have every company around trying to extract their 30% cut by sticking themselves in as a middle man. It's why we will end up losing the right to use our cars as we see fit. I don't the buy the argument that it's a "software platform" now. The amount of software in cars has been increasing for decades and this being a bit smarter doesn't suddenly mean that Tesla should get to take this step. They need to be stopped. It's not some Stallman-esque FOSS zealotry, it's just wanting to preserve the basic concept that I own my car.
        snrplfth 10y ago
        Tesla is not even assured of getting self-driving approved in lots of jurisdictions. It's going to be a long uphill battle to get it accepted. They are aware that even well-intentioned owners and modders could get into all sorts of trouble, and that the blame would fall on Tesla and self-driving cars generally, potentially doing great damage to their prospects. They're already under scrutiny. If you buy a self-driving Tesla in the future, you do own it. Drive it anywhere you like. But the software is under license and may not be used for certain things. Demanding that they open up their software to interfacing with who-knows-what is to demand that they introduce new security measures and functionalities, dependent on unpredictable third parties with unknown properties. Also, there's an easy way to avoid not feeling like you own your Tesla: don't buy a Tesla. I mean, as of now you really have to go out of your way to get one - so if they're "fucking over consumers" so bad with this, why would you buy it? This isn't something they're springing on you after a purchase, they're warning you years in advance.
        serge2k 10y ago
        > Also, there's an easy way to avoid not feeling like you own your Tesla: don't buy a Tesla. I mean, as of now you really have to go out of your way to get one - so if they're "fucking over consumers" so bad with this, why would you buy it? This isn't something they're springing on you after a purchase, they're warning you years in advance. I won't, but did you read what I posted? Allowing this to pass unchallenged will hurt everyone.
    - inimino 10y ago
      Expecting people to give up material benefits in the present to support idealistic promises in the future leads to disappointment.
    - adwn 10y ago
      > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." Being able to read and modify your car's software is hardly an "essential liberty". I'm pretty sure the source of this quote had things like freedom of speech, non-oppression, etc. in mind, not copy-left.
  - skykooler 10y ago
    5-10 years seems very optimistic. We've been waiting over 25 years for HURD.
git_rancher 10y ago
Is there any commercial software that lacks an EULA? Not having one would I think expose the company to risks that any for-profit company is incentivized to minimize (i.e. It wouldn't make sense to not have one).
MarkMc 10y ago
Do people also need to fight the EULA on Microsoft Excel? If not, what is the general principle that should determine when to fight a EULA?
- DasIch 10y ago
  Yes. EULAs are actually unenforceable in some countries. In Germany for example an EULA, is unenforceable unless you agree to it as part of the sale.
- Retra 10y ago
  You should fight any EULA that allows you to 'agree' to something without actually having any power to negotiate the terms of the agreement.
  - eridius 10y ago
    That would mean every EULA ever made. EULA's aren't ever a negotiation. Edit: I take it back. See reply.
    - EvanAnderson 10y ago
      The last company I worked for negotiated EULAs with contract development Customers. The Customer's price varied according to the rights they requested. It's certainly the case that most off-the-shelf EULAs aren't open to negotiation because the Customer is often inconsequentially small to the software "manufacturer". Larger Customers (particularly governments) certainly negotiate for license terms with major software "manufacturers", however.
      - eridius 10y ago
        You're right. I was thinking of EULA as just covering the license terms that end users have to accept before using software, which are not a negotiation, as opposed to special licensing terms that are negotiated (which I previously would have considered to just be "a contract"). But after perusing the wikipedia page on EULA, it does appear that specially-negotiated license terms are still a EULA, as EULA really just means a software license agreement.

Nah, the other companies will slap them on too. People need to fight this BS.

by serge2k 10y ago

Nah, the other companies will slap them on too. People need to fight this BS.

femto 10y ago

Cue Stallman. This is precisely the motivation for GNU software. How long before GNU (or other prxoy) has an autonomous driving project? Part of the issue is that the dataset is as important as the software. First step would seem to be the construction of a "GNU" hardware pack for autonomous driving and people start driving around with it mounted on their cars, gathering (GPL'd) data.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
I'd rather lease a fully autonomous Tesla out in the next 2-3 years in a ridesharing fleet, not wait 5-10 years for an open source version.
- stass 10y ago
  "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." This seems like an appropriate quote here. If we want to protect our rights we should not settle for conveniences. The software world in 90s is a good example of what happens.
  - winstonewert 10y ago
    People who sanctimoniously insist that other people are engaging in the wrong trade-off between liberty and safety and thus deserve to lose their liberty and safety are the worst enemies of liberty and safety.
    - snrplfth 10y ago
      True. And besides, what restriction on liberty is there here, really? If you don't like Tesla's terms, don't buy a Tesla.
      - serge2k 10y ago
        It's precedent really. One company does something to fuck over consumers and the others hold their breath for a minute to see what happens, then stampede to do it too. It's why we have binding arbitration agreements and no right to class action lawsuits in EULAs for game consoles. It's why we have every company around trying to extract their 30% cut by sticking themselves in as a middle man. It's why we will end up losing the right to use our cars as we see fit. I don't the buy the argument that it's a "software platform" now. The amount of software in cars has been increasing for decades and this being a bit smarter doesn't suddenly mean that Tesla should get to take this step. They need to be stopped. It's not some Stallman-esque FOSS zealotry, it's just wanting to preserve the basic concept that I own my car.
        snrplfth 10y ago
        Tesla is not even assured of getting self-driving approved in lots of jurisdictions. It's going to be a long uphill battle to get it accepted. They are aware that even well-intentioned owners and modders could get into all sorts of trouble, and that the blame would fall on Tesla and self-driving cars generally, potentially doing great damage to their prospects. They're already under scrutiny. If you buy a self-driving Tesla in the future, you do own it. Drive it anywhere you like. But the software is under license and may not be used for certain things. Demanding that they open up their software to interfacing with who-knows-what is to demand that they introduce new security measures and functionalities, dependent on unpredictable third parties with unknown properties. Also, there's an easy way to avoid not feeling like you own your Tesla: don't buy a Tesla. I mean, as of now you really have to go out of your way to get one - so if they're "fucking over consumers" so bad with this, why would you buy it? This isn't something they're springing on you after a purchase, they're warning you years in advance.
        serge2k 10y ago
        > Also, there's an easy way to avoid not feeling like you own your Tesla: don't buy a Tesla. I mean, as of now you really have to go out of your way to get one - so if they're "fucking over consumers" so bad with this, why would you buy it? This isn't something they're springing on you after a purchase, they're warning you years in advance. I won't, but did you read what I posted? Allowing this to pass unchallenged will hurt everyone.
  - inimino 10y ago
    Expecting people to give up material benefits in the present to support idealistic promises in the future leads to disappointment.
  - adwn 10y ago
    > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." Being able to read and modify your car's software is hardly an "essential liberty". I'm pretty sure the source of this quote had things like freedom of speech, non-oppression, etc. in mind, not copy-left.
- skykooler 10y ago
  5-10 years seems very optimistic. We've been waiting over 25 years for HURD.

git_rancher 10y ago

Is there any commercial software that lacks an EULA? Not having one would I think expose the company to risks that any for-profit company is incentivized to minimize (i.e. It wouldn't make sense to not have one).

MarkMc 10y ago

Do people also need to fight the EULA on Microsoft Excel? If not, what is the general principle that should determine when to fight a EULA?

DasIch 10y ago
Yes. EULAs are actually unenforceable in some countries. In Germany for example an EULA, is unenforceable unless you agree to it as part of the sale.
Retra 10y ago
You should fight any EULA that allows you to 'agree' to something without actually having any power to negotiate the terms of the agreement.
- eridius 10y ago
  That would mean every EULA ever made. EULA's aren't ever a negotiation. Edit: I take it back. See reply.
  - EvanAnderson 10y ago
    The last company I worked for negotiated EULAs with contract development Customers. The Customer's price varied according to the rights they requested. It's certainly the case that most off-the-shelf EULAs aren't open to negotiation because the Customer is often inconsequentially small to the software "manufacturer". Larger Customers (particularly governments) certainly negotiate for license terms with major software "manufacturers", however.
    - eridius 10y ago
      You're right. I was thinking of EULA as just covering the license terms that end users have to accept before using software, which are not a negotiation, as opposed to special licensing terms that are negotiated (which I previously would have considered to just be "a contract"). But after perusing the wikipedia page on EULA, it does appear that specially-negotiated license terms are still a EULA, as EULA really just means a software license agreement.