5 ms·

Here's the deal: Employers will exploit your age no matter how old you are. There is no "perfect age" for a developer. When you're young, they exploit you be

Here's the deal: Employers will exploit your age no matter how old you are. There is no "perfect age" for a developer. When you're young, they exploit you because you are inexperienced (especially at negotiation). When you are "old" they exploit by trying to play the age card. "Not a cultural fit"--LOL--fix your stupid culture and stop exploiting people, you smug fools! So what is there? A ten year "ripe" age range where you're good enough to code but don't have a wife and kids? Blatant exploitation of human capital. As far as "moving up to management" that's a load of crap. There aren't enough management positions to soak up all the age 35+ developers out there. It's an extremely narrow funnel. For the winners of that race, the prize is a lifetime of quiet suffering: You'll be lucky if you retire without major depression, anxiety, heart problems, or all three. I wonder what the mortality statistics are for people who work as IT managers? There is also this role called "architect." Do not be enticed. It is, at best, a torturous role, and at worst, it's a redundant role that people who were only so-so at coding get promoted to so they can no longer annoy the rest of the team. The effectiveness of any given architect has an exponential decay from the instant they stop coding and start attending meetings all day. Basically, you either keep coding and stay relevant or you go do something else completely. The rest is bs. But don't for a second imagine that companies aren't exploiting you by making you uneasy about your age or whatever else can be thrown in front of you to try and confuse, diminish, and lowball you.

xedarius 10y ago
This is 100% accurate in every aspect.
reustle 10y ago
> "Not a cultural fit"--LOL--fix your stupid culture and stop exploiting people, you smug fools! If you're hiring someone 15+ years older than the rest of your team, there are going to be some cultural differences.
- LnxPrgr3 10y ago
  So? You're getting together to build things for money, not pounding back beers on the front porch and ranting about politics.
  - RonanTheGrey 10y ago
    So you've never worked in a startup, then. :(
  - Annatar 10y ago
    I think what the poster meant is that the twenty-somethings will just want to hack things up on the quick in Python or Rust while the old guy says whoa, let's sit down and write a specification first, and think about how we could architect this thing, and let's make OS packages out of all the components.
    - gridspy 10y ago
      That isn't the problem. The problem is that the young guys THINK that the old guy will do this.
      - Annatar 10y ago
        Sorry, I'm not clear on what you mean: they think that the old guy will write the specification and architect everything, or they think he will hack stuff together with them?
        emodendroket 10y ago
        I think the implication is they think he'll be a slow-moving dinosaur before they even talk to him.
        baytrailcat 10y ago
        Having been on both sides of the table, I can attest to it. When I was a young developer interviewing more experienced developers, I would foresee the hassle of arguing with him on everything day to day and that would instantly give negative weight to his candidacy. The irony is that I realized I had this subconscious bias only after I got older. On the other hand, when an older guy is getting interviewed by a potential peer, he should do everything in his power to appear coachable (gasp!) and flexible. The situation may be slightly different if you are being interviewed by a mid-level exec or a senior manager for a senior role in the team.
- trymas 10y ago
  So what? I bet that usual 35+yr developer is a better developer than <25yr one. Company's task is to make money. Employee's task is to do the job and get paid for it. Where's "culture" here? Drinking beers, organizing parties, etc. is a waste of company's resources.
  - chillydawg 10y ago
    It really is not a waste. It's a) cheap and b) can improve morale in companies.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      It can but there's some downsides. Not everyone likes drinking beers and parties with coworkers. For those people it does the opposite of improve morale. The best way to improve morale is ample vacation time and good work-life balance.
      - tdb7893 10y ago
        That's something I learned while interviewing at tech companies. They all have tons of perks but when I talked with the employees 2/3 of the people I talked to (I actually counted) complained about work/life balance at some time. I would rather work a sane amount of hours a week and have more vacation than have a rock-climbing coffee bar at work or whatever the perks are now.
        nommm-nommm 10y ago
        When I was 22 free food at work sounded amazing. Now? I eat once a day and I want that meal to be with my family. My priorities have done a total 180.
- lubonay 10y ago
  From my personal experience, this is utter bullcrap. At my first real programming job in a somewhat large company, we were an Android team of 6 developers aged 20-25 (the 25 y.o. guy was the team leader) and one dude aged 40. It was very easy to get along with him, even though we couldn't really relate to the problems of having a teenage daughter. I wouldn't call these cultural differences problematic at all - actually having an older person's perspective on your team can be quite beneficial, young people are often too impulsive for their own good. Most of us were juniors facing our first professional coding gig. The older guy's experience was invaluable because he already knew a bunch of languages, had used lots of different SDKs and had made a ton of mistakes, so we could and did learn a lot from him. The only thing that struck me as silly was that he was a 'Junior Developer' by job title since he also wasn't experienced in the concrete platform, even though he could code circles around us newbies.
  - TheGRS 10y ago
    I haven't ever worked in a 20-something only culture. I was the young guy when I joined my company, most of the team was in their 30s, some in their 40s. Over time it helped me grow as an individual, and it also helped me to grow professionally. Anyone who's had a few more years of experience probably has something wise to share with you, whether they know it or not. Hell even those with less experience often have a different perspective that is worth listening to. I guess what I'm trying to say is none of us should live in an echo chamber and we should all try to be open-minded (but maybe that's a little heavy-handed).
- fsloth 10y ago
  15 years is no big deal with professional coders. The age range in our team spans a 30 year range - from 20s to 50s. "Cultural fit" is either a prejudice or an excuse. The 'old' guys who never stopped improving are friggin amazing in my experience.
- scrollaway 10y ago
  I've worked at three different small (<10 people) startups, every time with most employees 18-26 and one older at 35-48, all three times in three different roles. Never did it come up. Never did it ever cross my mind, nor seem to be a problem, to me or anyone, that this person was older than the rest of us. We got along great. Age is only a cultural issue if you make it one. As it turns out, when you evaluate people on less superficial things than age, skin color or gender, this simply doesn't come up. I've talked about this before and I've heard crazy shit like "what if the person in question has to go back to wife&kids rather than go out for drinks - it's a cultural misfit" and honestly... what the fuck. Not going out, not participating in out-of-office activities, who cares? I avoid most parties (or only go to show up) because I intensely dislike them. That doesn't make me older than the rest of my team, and if someone thinks it's an issue they're probably someone I don't want to work with. There's extremes (such as extremely antisocial people) you can't always accomodate, but that usually has nothing to do with age.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  I agree -- nothing produces smart organizational thinking like hiring nothing but inexperienced people with exactly the same backgrounds and biases.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  What sort of "culture" do you need in your workplace other than "get along with your co-workers, be respectful, and get your work done?" You are interviewing colleagues not drinking buddies.
messel 10y ago
Read this comment nodding, but it sounds like a zero sum system. There's got to be a better way to attract and enhance talented developers.

xedarius 10y ago

This is 100% accurate in every aspect.

reustle 10y ago

> "Not a cultural fit"--LOL--fix your stupid culture and stop exploiting people, you smug fools! If you're hiring someone 15+ years older than the rest of your team, there are going to be some cultural differences.

LnxPrgr3 10y ago
So? You're getting together to build things for money, not pounding back beers on the front porch and ranting about politics.
- RonanTheGrey 10y ago
  So you've never worked in a startup, then. :(
- Annatar 10y ago
  I think what the poster meant is that the twenty-somethings will just want to hack things up on the quick in Python or Rust while the old guy says whoa, let's sit down and write a specification first, and think about how we could architect this thing, and let's make OS packages out of all the components.
  - gridspy 10y ago
    That isn't the problem. The problem is that the young guys THINK that the old guy will do this.
    - Annatar 10y ago
      Sorry, I'm not clear on what you mean: they think that the old guy will write the specification and architect everything, or they think he will hack stuff together with them?
      - emodendroket 10y ago
        I think the implication is they think he'll be a slow-moving dinosaur before they even talk to him.
        baytrailcat 10y ago
        Having been on both sides of the table, I can attest to it. When I was a young developer interviewing more experienced developers, I would foresee the hassle of arguing with him on everything day to day and that would instantly give negative weight to his candidacy. The irony is that I realized I had this subconscious bias only after I got older. On the other hand, when an older guy is getting interviewed by a potential peer, he should do everything in his power to appear coachable (gasp!) and flexible. The situation may be slightly different if you are being interviewed by a mid-level exec or a senior manager for a senior role in the team.
trymas 10y ago
So what? I bet that usual 35+yr developer is a better developer than <25yr one. Company's task is to make money. Employee's task is to do the job and get paid for it. Where's "culture" here? Drinking beers, organizing parties, etc. is a waste of company's resources.
- chillydawg 10y ago
  It really is not a waste. It's a) cheap and b) can improve morale in companies.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    It can but there's some downsides. Not everyone likes drinking beers and parties with coworkers. For those people it does the opposite of improve morale. The best way to improve morale is ample vacation time and good work-life balance.
    - tdb7893 10y ago
      That's something I learned while interviewing at tech companies. They all have tons of perks but when I talked with the employees 2/3 of the people I talked to (I actually counted) complained about work/life balance at some time. I would rather work a sane amount of hours a week and have more vacation than have a rock-climbing coffee bar at work or whatever the perks are now.
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        When I was 22 free food at work sounded amazing. Now? I eat once a day and I want that meal to be with my family. My priorities have done a total 180.
lubonay 10y ago
From my personal experience, this is utter bullcrap. At my first real programming job in a somewhat large company, we were an Android team of 6 developers aged 20-25 (the 25 y.o. guy was the team leader) and one dude aged 40. It was very easy to get along with him, even though we couldn't really relate to the problems of having a teenage daughter. I wouldn't call these cultural differences problematic at all - actually having an older person's perspective on your team can be quite beneficial, young people are often too impulsive for their own good. Most of us were juniors facing our first professional coding gig. The older guy's experience was invaluable because he already knew a bunch of languages, had used lots of different SDKs and had made a ton of mistakes, so we could and did learn a lot from him. The only thing that struck me as silly was that he was a 'Junior Developer' by job title since he also wasn't experienced in the concrete platform, even though he could code circles around us newbies.
- TheGRS 10y ago
  I haven't ever worked in a 20-something only culture. I was the young guy when I joined my company, most of the team was in their 30s, some in their 40s. Over time it helped me grow as an individual, and it also helped me to grow professionally. Anyone who's had a few more years of experience probably has something wise to share with you, whether they know it or not. Hell even those with less experience often have a different perspective that is worth listening to. I guess what I'm trying to say is none of us should live in an echo chamber and we should all try to be open-minded (but maybe that's a little heavy-handed).
fsloth 10y ago
15 years is no big deal with professional coders. The age range in our team spans a 30 year range - from 20s to 50s. "Cultural fit" is either a prejudice or an excuse. The 'old' guys who never stopped improving are friggin amazing in my experience.
scrollaway 10y ago
I've worked at three different small (<10 people) startups, every time with most employees 18-26 and one older at 35-48, all three times in three different roles. Never did it come up. Never did it ever cross my mind, nor seem to be a problem, to me or anyone, that this person was older than the rest of us. We got along great. Age is only a cultural issue if you make it one. As it turns out, when you evaluate people on less superficial things than age, skin color or gender, this simply doesn't come up. I've talked about this before and I've heard crazy shit like "what if the person in question has to go back to wife&kids rather than go out for drinks - it's a cultural misfit" and honestly... what the fuck. Not going out, not participating in out-of-office activities, who cares? I avoid most parties (or only go to show up) because I intensely dislike them. That doesn't make me older than the rest of my team, and if someone thinks it's an issue they're probably someone I don't want to work with. There's extremes (such as extremely antisocial people) you can't always accomodate, but that usually has nothing to do with age.
emodendroket 10y ago
I agree -- nothing produces smart organizational thinking like hiring nothing but inexperienced people with exactly the same backgrounds and biases.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
What sort of "culture" do you need in your workplace other than "get along with your co-workers, be respectful, and get your work done?" You are interviewing colleagues not drinking buddies.

messel 10y ago

Read this comment nodding, but it sounds like a zero sum system. There's got to be a better way to attract and enhance talented developers.