9 ms·

People with no kids... As a parent, I find these individuals to be the most aggravating. I tell them that commenting on someone's parenting, as though you have

by dleslie 10y ago

People with no kids... As a parent, I find these individuals to be the most aggravating. I tell them that commenting on someone's parenting, as though you have any experience or wisdom in the matter, is a bit like a white person telling a black person how to cope with racism. Edit: oh look, here they come to give me their abundant wisdom.

bcook 10y ago
Except we've all had parents... I dunno anyone who has swapped races.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Not everyone is a parent. That's the analogy.
- frogpelt 10y ago
  Having parents and being a parent are slightly more similar than having a dog and being a dog.
lagadu 10y ago
You're implying that having a child magically imbues you with parenting knowledge.
- kylemaxwell 10y ago
  No, but as with everything else in life, experience counts.
  - curried_haskell 10y ago
    In this case it's difficult to say. Experience counts, but experience also distorts perception, especially when we're talking about parental hormones.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > No, but as with everything else in life, experience counts. Experience did not make me a better programmer or mathematician. Diving deep into the details to get a much better knowledge did.
    - jacoblambda 10y ago
      but... but that's what experience is.
      - imron 10y ago
        Experience is not something you get until just after you need it.
  - newjersey 10y ago
    Actually, as with everything else in life, experience doesn't count at all. More accurately, not all experience counts equally. We know for a fact that the ten thousand hours of practice myth is just a myth. It takes targeted training to get better at something. I'd wager that most parents are just going through the motions because let's be honest — we have no clue what we're doing. Update typo
- analog31 10y ago
  Indeed, I'm as likely to ignore the advice of other parents as I am to ignore non-parents. A lot of parenting advice from parents is survivor bias or outright bragging. In fact, I'm actually skeptical about the effect of parenting in general, versus the influence of genetics.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- duderific 10y ago
  It doesn't imbue with parenting knowledge, but it does imbue you with parenting experience, which is certainly more than non-parents have.
  - tremon 10y ago
    Are you implying that a childless teacher, that has been in the profession for 25 years, has less experience raising children than the parents of a single toddler?
    - duderific 10y ago
      It's apples and oranges. A teacher is not "raising" children; they are teaching them in a controlled environment with certain expectations and structures. Also, a teacher is likely to focus on a certain age group and become expert in working with children in a relatively limited age range. A parent must work with their children over the entire span of their life. The teacher is not up in the middle of the night with the child when they have strep throat. The teacher is not up in the middle of the night when their child has a nightmare. These are the sorts of things that only happen when you are a parent.
      - tremon 10y ago
        Also, a teacher is likely to focus on a certain age group and become expert in working with children in a relatively limited age range. A parent must work with their children over the entire span of their life. I understand your what you're saying, but this argument works against the argument that parents are automatically qualified by virtue of experience: a mother of a 2-year-old has no experience raising a 3-year-old either.
    - up_and_up 10y ago
      Dude, my childless step-mother in-law is this! A childless teacher is a pseudo-parent 8-3:30, 5 days a week, 9 months a year. They honestly havent got a clue. They can head home and chill. While parenting is an endless grind. Kids will wedge into every spare moment and literally consume all the space, physical and mental energy. Try spending all night up with 3 kids with the stomach flu then having your boss push you to meet a deadline the next day. These teachers, including my mother in-law can keep their `advice`.
- antod 10y ago
  No but it should imbue you with a sense of perspective about how much control you really have over kids, and how kids are all different requiring different ways of handling, and to not leap to judge other parents because you've been through enough shit yourself as well.
icanhackit 10y ago
> People with no kids... As a parent, I find these individuals to be the most aggravating. Also aggravating: parents who call childless couples selfish. Like not spitting one out is somehow cheating life, and having kids makes you a kinder person. Both sides are equally self-interested, neither are totally selfless or selfish. I'll concede that a lot of parents will shift their energy from themselves to their child's well-being, but that's where the selflessness ends and they often become a sinkhole for other people's energy. They're gifting no one except their own inner circle, which is fine - that's how life works for most people.
- humanrebar 10y ago
  "Selfish" isn't fair, but some else's kids are paying future taxes, performing future surgeries, and fighting future wars. Existing social and fiscal expectations have a certain birth rate built in.
  - slavik81 10y ago
    New members of society add value. They will do a lifetime worth of work. New members of society have a cost. They will use a lifetime worth of services. On average, those will be about the same. There is probably an ideal population count, but without actually figuring out what that count is and showing we're below it, that's not a worthwhile discussion.
  - skewart 10y ago
    That birth rate depends on there not being too many kids too. School districts benefit from childless residents who pay taxes to support schools but don't impose any costs. Also, there are many ways to contribute to the development of young generations other than simply having biological children. Even aside from adopting, lots of childless people I've known have been great mentors and teachers. (Not that you'd necessarily disagree, just your post could kind of be interpreted that way).
- dleslie 10y ago
  Did I say anything about selfishness? Regardless, consider that your future comfort relies on someone else having a child. When you're old and everyone who cares for you is younger than you, thank those who had children and raised them well enough to be able to care for you.
wolfgke 10y ago
> People with no kids... As a parent, I find these individuals to be the most aggravating. I have no kids (and I don't want any), but I'm radically pro-freedom for the kids. So the boundary is not to be parents vs. not-parents, but people who desire safety vs. people who desire freedom.
quadrangle 10y ago
Well, I am a parent, and I still think I did understand a lot of what I was getting into back when I had no kids. I think that my advice and thoughts then were sound. Furthermore, I think that I am now sleep-deprived enough to often have trouble making the best judgment in spur-of-the-moment situations. I also have times where I'm emotionally drained because of all the challenges of parenting. I honestly think a thoughtful non-parent could come around and probably give me some good coaching and advice because they would be more objective. So, I fundamentally think that all the parents who hate how others give advice are potentially just hypersensitive. Okay, really? Most of the non-parents are probably giving crappy thoughtless advice. I haven;'t experienced that too much myself, but I'm sure it happens. In my case, I've always been very thoughtful about these things and I have lots of experience teaching young kids, so I knew far more than average about raising kids prior to having my own. Still, I don't agree with the claim that non-parents have no wisdom here.
- dleslie 10y ago
  There are always exceptions.
flukus 10y ago
I'm not a pilot, but if I see a helicopter upside down in a tree I'm pretty sure someone fucked up.
- Fordrus 10y ago
  Great example! Without context and potentially experience, you might not understand that the helicopter you see upside down in that tree experienced critical mechanical failures, and the pilot saved the lives of himself and the crew by getting it stuck upside down in a tree instead of just crashing into the ground at full speed. In other words, yeah, not being a pilot and lacking contextual knowledge of the helicopter DOES mean, at the very least, that you don"t know WHO fucked up - the pilot, the mechanic, the manufacturer, the designer, or whether the poor sucker just got shot down.
  - braveo 10y ago
    > Great example! Without context and potentially experience, you might not understand that the helicopter you see upside down in that tree experienced critical mechanical failures, and the pilot saved the lives of himself and the crew by getting it stuck upside down in a tree instead of just crashing into the ground at full speed. This is everything that's wrong with software today, and I mean that seriously. What the poster said is "someone fucked up". He didn't say "the pilot fucked up". If there is a mechanical failure on that helicopter while it's in flight, someone MOST DEFINITELY FUCKED UP. There are processes in place surrounding that helicopter specifically to make sure that pilot never has to make the decision of putting said helicopter upside down in a tree. In otherwords, someone dun fucked up, and you don't have to be a helicopter pilot or helicopter mechanic, or a helicopter engineer, or anything related to any of it, to be able to identify that someone somewhere fucked up.
    - flukus 10y ago
      I also said "pretty sure". I'm not ruling out a freak occurrence that got the helicopter there (or a genuinely phsyco kid), but odds are there is blame to be placed.
lostlogin 10y ago
Starting anything with "As a parent..." or "As a mother..." etc is a sure fire way to get my heckles up. As a parent is puzzles my why that would make someone an authority on anything.
- afarrell 10y ago
  What about "as someone who has had several years of repeatedly dealing with a set of problems and stressors"?
  - tremon 10y ago
    With a very specific set of problems and stressors. Try being the oldest child in a beyond broken marriage -- that's a whole different set of problems and stressors, but they still involve carrying responsibility for children. Is a parent of a single 2-year old really more qualified or experienced than someone who has 15 years of experience caring for siblings?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
jacobr 10y ago
Also, all kids are different. Sometimes I get judgemental against some parents putting their kids in front of an iPad in the restaurant or wherever. But maybe that's the only way for them to ever get out and eat at all, what if their kids have some concentration issues, I have no idea.

by dleslie 10y ago

bcook 10y ago

Except we've all had parents... I dunno anyone who has swapped races.

r00fus 10y ago
Not everyone is a parent. That's the analogy.
frogpelt 10y ago
Having parents and being a parent are slightly more similar than having a dog and being a dog.

lagadu 10y ago

You're implying that having a child magically imbues you with parenting knowledge.

kylemaxwell 10y ago
No, but as with everything else in life, experience counts.
- curried_haskell 10y ago
  In this case it's difficult to say. Experience counts, but experience also distorts perception, especially when we're talking about parental hormones.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > No, but as with everything else in life, experience counts. Experience did not make me a better programmer or mathematician. Diving deep into the details to get a much better knowledge did.
  - jacoblambda 10y ago
    but... but that's what experience is.
    - imron 10y ago
      Experience is not something you get until just after you need it.
- newjersey 10y ago
  Actually, as with everything else in life, experience doesn't count at all. More accurately, not all experience counts equally. We know for a fact that the ten thousand hours of practice myth is just a myth. It takes targeted training to get better at something. I'd wager that most parents are just going through the motions because let's be honest — we have no clue what we're doing. Update typo
analog31 10y ago
Indeed, I'm as likely to ignore the advice of other parents as I am to ignore non-parents. A lot of parenting advice from parents is survivor bias or outright bragging. In fact, I'm actually skeptical about the effect of parenting in general, versus the influence of genetics.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
duderific 10y ago
It doesn't imbue with parenting knowledge, but it does imbue you with parenting experience, which is certainly more than non-parents have.
- tremon 10y ago
  Are you implying that a childless teacher, that has been in the profession for 25 years, has less experience raising children than the parents of a single toddler?
  - duderific 10y ago
    It's apples and oranges. A teacher is not "raising" children; they are teaching them in a controlled environment with certain expectations and structures. Also, a teacher is likely to focus on a certain age group and become expert in working with children in a relatively limited age range. A parent must work with their children over the entire span of their life. The teacher is not up in the middle of the night with the child when they have strep throat. The teacher is not up in the middle of the night when their child has a nightmare. These are the sorts of things that only happen when you are a parent.
    - tremon 10y ago
      Also, a teacher is likely to focus on a certain age group and become expert in working with children in a relatively limited age range. A parent must work with their children over the entire span of their life. I understand your what you're saying, but this argument works against the argument that parents are automatically qualified by virtue of experience: a mother of a 2-year-old has no experience raising a 3-year-old either.
  - up_and_up 10y ago
    Dude, my childless step-mother in-law is this! A childless teacher is a pseudo-parent 8-3:30, 5 days a week, 9 months a year. They honestly havent got a clue. They can head home and chill. While parenting is an endless grind. Kids will wedge into every spare moment and literally consume all the space, physical and mental energy. Try spending all night up with 3 kids with the stomach flu then having your boss push you to meet a deadline the next day. These teachers, including my mother in-law can keep their `advice`.
antod 10y ago
No but it should imbue you with a sense of perspective about how much control you really have over kids, and how kids are all different requiring different ways of handling, and to not leap to judge other parents because you've been through enough shit yourself as well.

icanhackit 10y ago

> People with no kids... As a parent, I find these individuals to be the most aggravating. Also aggravating: parents who call childless couples selfish. Like not spitting one out is somehow cheating life, and having kids makes you a kinder person. Both sides are equally self-interested, neither are totally selfless or selfish. I'll concede that a lot of parents will shift their energy from themselves to their child's well-being, but that's where the selflessness ends and they often become a sinkhole for other people's energy. They're gifting no one except their own inner circle, which is fine - that's how life works for most people.

humanrebar 10y ago
"Selfish" isn't fair, but some else's kids are paying future taxes, performing future surgeries, and fighting future wars. Existing social and fiscal expectations have a certain birth rate built in.
- slavik81 10y ago
  New members of society add value. They will do a lifetime worth of work. New members of society have a cost. They will use a lifetime worth of services. On average, those will be about the same. There is probably an ideal population count, but without actually figuring out what that count is and showing we're below it, that's not a worthwhile discussion.
- skewart 10y ago
  That birth rate depends on there not being too many kids too. School districts benefit from childless residents who pay taxes to support schools but don't impose any costs. Also, there are many ways to contribute to the development of young generations other than simply having biological children. Even aside from adopting, lots of childless people I've known have been great mentors and teachers. (Not that you'd necessarily disagree, just your post could kind of be interpreted that way).
dleslie 10y ago
Did I say anything about selfishness? Regardless, consider that your future comfort relies on someone else having a child. When you're old and everyone who cares for you is younger than you, thank those who had children and raised them well enough to be able to care for you.

wolfgke 10y ago

> People with no kids... As a parent, I find these individuals to be the most aggravating. I have no kids (and I don't want any), but I'm radically pro-freedom for the kids. So the boundary is not to be parents vs. not-parents, but people who desire safety vs. people who desire freedom.

quadrangle 10y ago

Well, I am a parent, and I still think I did understand a lot of what I was getting into back when I had no kids. I think that my advice and thoughts then were sound. Furthermore, I think that I am now sleep-deprived enough to often have trouble making the best judgment in spur-of-the-moment situations. I also have times where I'm emotionally drained because of all the challenges of parenting. I honestly think a thoughtful non-parent could come around and probably give me some good coaching and advice because they would be more objective. So, I fundamentally think that all the parents who hate how others give advice are potentially just hypersensitive. Okay, really? Most of the non-parents are probably giving crappy thoughtless advice. I haven;'t experienced that too much myself, but I'm sure it happens. In my case, I've always been very thoughtful about these things and I have lots of experience teaching young kids, so I knew far more than average about raising kids prior to having my own. Still, I don't agree with the claim that non-parents have no wisdom here.

dleslie 10y ago
There are always exceptions.

flukus 10y ago

I'm not a pilot, but if I see a helicopter upside down in a tree I'm pretty sure someone fucked up.

Fordrus 10y ago
Great example! Without context and potentially experience, you might not understand that the helicopter you see upside down in that tree experienced critical mechanical failures, and the pilot saved the lives of himself and the crew by getting it stuck upside down in a tree instead of just crashing into the ground at full speed. In other words, yeah, not being a pilot and lacking contextual knowledge of the helicopter DOES mean, at the very least, that you don"t know WHO fucked up - the pilot, the mechanic, the manufacturer, the designer, or whether the poor sucker just got shot down.
- braveo 10y ago
  > Great example! Without context and potentially experience, you might not understand that the helicopter you see upside down in that tree experienced critical mechanical failures, and the pilot saved the lives of himself and the crew by getting it stuck upside down in a tree instead of just crashing into the ground at full speed. This is everything that's wrong with software today, and I mean that seriously. What the poster said is "someone fucked up". He didn't say "the pilot fucked up". If there is a mechanical failure on that helicopter while it's in flight, someone MOST DEFINITELY FUCKED UP. There are processes in place surrounding that helicopter specifically to make sure that pilot never has to make the decision of putting said helicopter upside down in a tree. In otherwords, someone dun fucked up, and you don't have to be a helicopter pilot or helicopter mechanic, or a helicopter engineer, or anything related to any of it, to be able to identify that someone somewhere fucked up.
  - flukus 10y ago
    I also said "pretty sure". I'm not ruling out a freak occurrence that got the helicopter there (or a genuinely phsyco kid), but odds are there is blame to be placed.

lostlogin 10y ago

Starting anything with "As a parent..." or "As a mother..." etc is a sure fire way to get my heckles up. As a parent is puzzles my why that would make someone an authority on anything.

afarrell 10y ago
What about "as someone who has had several years of repeatedly dealing with a set of problems and stressors"?
- tremon 10y ago
  With a very specific set of problems and stressors. Try being the oldest child in a beyond broken marriage -- that's a whole different set of problems and stressors, but they still involve carrying responsibility for children. Is a parent of a single 2-year old really more qualified or experienced than someone who has 15 years of experience caring for siblings?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

jacobr 10y ago

Also, all kids are different. Sometimes I get judgemental against some parents putting their kids in front of an iPad in the restaurant or wherever. But maybe that's the only way for them to ever get out and eat at all, what if their kids have some concentration issues, I have no idea.