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Anyone that hasn't yet, check out Black Mirror on Netflix. It has a lot of ideas in it that I am surprised to see in a show in 2016. I love Elon Musk but I thi

by mentos 10y ago

Anyone that hasn't yet, check out Black Mirror on Netflix. It has a lot of ideas in it that I am surprised to see in a show in 2016. I love Elon Musk but I think he is solving the wrong problem when it comes to making human beings a space faring species. The fragility of human flesh is the barrier to colonizing space. You can try to solve this problem by wrapping it in a contained atmosphere or wait a thousand years and send humans to Mars in a different kind of space ship. One made of metal and silicon that can recharge its batteries so long as it has a line of sight on a distant star.. maybe as the article says: "a robotic body [standing] roughly two millimeters tall" The greatest challenge we face is keeping this incubator called Earth alive long enough for us to develop the technology to abandon our flesh. But I imagine if that day ever comes what it means to be human will have been destroyed in the end anyways.

mordymoop 10y ago
We can do more than one thing at once.
mburns 10y ago
>or wait a thousand years and send humans to Mars in a different kind of space ship. Pardon the pun, but why on Earth should we wait 1000 years (or whatever it actually takes) for something when we don't have to? Our fragile human flesh in a contained atmosphere works well enough and we're roughly capable of doing it now, give or take a couple decades. Then we have 900+ years to improve the containers we use to maintain our preferred atmosphere while waiting for whatever form this futuristic species you describe takes.
- sjg007 10y ago
  Basically we can't survive space radiation... Even going to Mars.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    We can though. Using today's technology we can easily go to Mars and live in underground habitats and be subject to only a moderate increase in health risks from radiation absorbed during the trip. Said health risks would be less than what a decent number of current Earth-bound professions face, and those people don't even get to go to Mars.
    - rabidrat 10y ago
      > easily What we are currently doing on Mars remotely is absolutely incredible and at the upper limit of our present capabilities. Don't think for a second that having "today's technology" does not still require a herculean effort, if we even have a 5% chance of pulling it off before funding (which would be in the trillions) is cut.
      - CydeWeys 10y ago
        I was specifically refuting the claim that the radiation problem is a blocker, when in fact it is just a minor nuisance. Storms posed more of a danger to the first ships exploring the new world than radiation will to Mars colonists, and that didn't stop anyone.
        sjg007 10y ago
        You are mistaken. https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY16/IG-16-003.pdf https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY16/IG-16-003.pdf
        CydeWeys 10y ago
        Do you have a link to a specific page within that report demonstrating your point? I skimmed through it and all I saw is that it says that there are some risks. Obviously I'm not denying that. It doesn't say at all that the risks are so high that we can't do missions with current technology (which provides minimal to no radiation shielding in transit). Mainly it's saying that further study is merited, which I absolutely agree with. I also think we don't need to hold off on going until we achieve perfect mitigation, and I believe most NASA employees would agree with me on that as well.
elevensies 10y ago
I think brain-upload is probably the only way to do interstellar travel, even if you synthesize a new body on the other side. For someone alive today, if you want to do interstellar or non-colonization space travel, going after immorality is the best option IMO. I don't think that earth-preservation is a worthwhile quest on a personal level. There are dozens of people who could destroy the whole planet since the invention of nukes. And with climate change for example, any kind of proportionate action would require an agreement between giant (100M to 1B+ people) political organizations to voluntarily makes themselves less wealthy -- although making tech that is greener and cheaper/better is probably the most significantly helpful option.
- JaggedNZ 10y ago
  > going after immorality is the best option IMO Now there is an ironic typo/autocorrect, I think the word you where looking for is immortality, unless of course you are making a scathing criticism that the pursuit of self preservation for the purpose of interstellar travel is against the laws of morality. Thanks for a chuckle. I do think though that emulation of "specialized" hardware with generic hardware is a complex problem space. While it's now possible to recreate classic gaming systems with fpga's for example, some cases we are able to only offer an approximation. The computing power of the host exceeds the power of the emulated CPU by several orders of magnitude. My thinking is to emulate wetware with hardware will require hardware several orders of magnitude more powerful than wetware and I suspect the wetware is already close the physical limitation of the universe for several key problem spaces.
  - elevensies 10y ago
    *immortality (oops :S) Sure, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, and given all that, I still think it is the best chance. #1: in the short term, the quantity of hardware doesn't matter. If you needed a full data center costing $10M per year, it would still be worth it for some people. The idea is to get into a host that is replaceable, and then you can work on making it smaller. #2: in the short term, you don't need to run in real time. If you are just trying to survive until better tech comes along, running at 1% means the equivalent of 3.65 days per year: maybe enough to survive until hardware improves. Taking this to an extreme, 100 people could pool resources for protection and tech improvement while staying in deep storage and only running their minds very seldom. Given the above two points, all that really matters to me is that I can find a way to upload my mind into binary data which I know can be simulated faithfully. All I need is upload, storage, and a recovery plan. If the recovery plan looks like it will take 1000 years, fine, I still prefer it to nothing. If I think there is a 1% chance of success over the next 1000 years for immortality, I believe I will do it. #3: we know for a fact that the functionality of the brain/body is achievable in the space/power envelope of the brain/body. I could easily tolerate a 100x space and power increase. The human body is approximate 100 watts and 100 litres. So 100x is 10,000 watts and 10 cubic meters: 13 horsepower and the size of a compact car -- fine by me. I think I could survive immobile and incorporeal for 100 years with a good library, if, for example, I had to be anchored to the seabed somewhere and run off geothermal energy. The more you expand your lifespan, the more options open up. If you can run yourself at very slow speeds an immense amount of options open up.
the_duke 10y ago
I recently discovered Black Mirror. It's a great and fascinating series. Finally something other then the mind numbing pabulum that is most TV. I especially loved season 1 / episode 2. --- The way our brain works, all experience, self consciousness and awareness is intricately linked to physical perception. If we were to go the 'brain in a petri dish' route, we would have to fake all those signals a body would send to the brain. If we just start emulating the brain physiology digitally, that is easier of course. But I would not call the result of either method a 'human being', but something inherently different.
- internaut 10y ago
  Watch Utopia. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia I judge it better than Black Mirror. Don't google any information about it because it will sound stupid, just watch it outright.
- Shorel 10y ago
  What you describe is the central idea in 'I of the vortex: from neurons to self' by neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinás. Self consciousness and awareness is linked both to physical perception and to the prediction and anticipation of said perception.
internaut 10y ago
There is a TV series better than Black Mirror believe it or not. I'll shill for it because it's an amazing work of art. It's called Utopia, it's a conspiracy thriller from Channel 4, and if it doesn't send chills down your spine and raise your hackles then you aren't alive. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia
_andromeda_ 10y ago
Just read on Black Mirror; it seems interesting. Thanks for the recommendation. For those seeking more knowledge on DNI and the validity of cryonics as an elixir of life, I highly recommend getting a copy of Michio Kaku's book, The Future of the Mind.

by mentos 10y ago

mordymoop 10y ago

We can do more than one thing at once.

mburns 10y ago

>or wait a thousand years and send humans to Mars in a different kind of space ship. Pardon the pun, but why on Earth should we wait 1000 years (or whatever it actually takes) for something when we don't have to? Our fragile human flesh in a contained atmosphere works well enough and we're roughly capable of doing it now, give or take a couple decades. Then we have 900+ years to improve the containers we use to maintain our preferred atmosphere while waiting for whatever form this futuristic species you describe takes.

sjg007 10y ago
Basically we can't survive space radiation... Even going to Mars.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  We can though. Using today's technology we can easily go to Mars and live in underground habitats and be subject to only a moderate increase in health risks from radiation absorbed during the trip. Said health risks would be less than what a decent number of current Earth-bound professions face, and those people don't even get to go to Mars.
  - rabidrat 10y ago
    > easily What we are currently doing on Mars remotely is absolutely incredible and at the upper limit of our present capabilities. Don't think for a second that having "today's technology" does not still require a herculean effort, if we even have a 5% chance of pulling it off before funding (which would be in the trillions) is cut.
    - CydeWeys 10y ago
      I was specifically refuting the claim that the radiation problem is a blocker, when in fact it is just a minor nuisance. Storms posed more of a danger to the first ships exploring the new world than radiation will to Mars colonists, and that didn't stop anyone.
      - sjg007 10y ago
        You are mistaken. https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY16/IG-16-003.pdf https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY16/IG-16-003.pdf
        CydeWeys 10y ago
        Do you have a link to a specific page within that report demonstrating your point? I skimmed through it and all I saw is that it says that there are some risks. Obviously I'm not denying that. It doesn't say at all that the risks are so high that we can't do missions with current technology (which provides minimal to no radiation shielding in transit). Mainly it's saying that further study is merited, which I absolutely agree with. I also think we don't need to hold off on going until we achieve perfect mitigation, and I believe most NASA employees would agree with me on that as well.

elevensies 10y ago

I think brain-upload is probably the only way to do interstellar travel, even if you synthesize a new body on the other side. For someone alive today, if you want to do interstellar or non-colonization space travel, going after immorality is the best option IMO. I don't think that earth-preservation is a worthwhile quest on a personal level. There are dozens of people who could destroy the whole planet since the invention of nukes. And with climate change for example, any kind of proportionate action would require an agreement between giant (100M to 1B+ people) political organizations to voluntarily makes themselves less wealthy -- although making tech that is greener and cheaper/better is probably the most significantly helpful option.

JaggedNZ 10y ago
> going after immorality is the best option IMO Now there is an ironic typo/autocorrect, I think the word you where looking for is immortality, unless of course you are making a scathing criticism that the pursuit of self preservation for the purpose of interstellar travel is against the laws of morality. Thanks for a chuckle. I do think though that emulation of "specialized" hardware with generic hardware is a complex problem space. While it's now possible to recreate classic gaming systems with fpga's for example, some cases we are able to only offer an approximation. The computing power of the host exceeds the power of the emulated CPU by several orders of magnitude. My thinking is to emulate wetware with hardware will require hardware several orders of magnitude more powerful than wetware and I suspect the wetware is already close the physical limitation of the universe for several key problem spaces.
- elevensies 10y ago
  *immortality (oops :S) Sure, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, and given all that, I still think it is the best chance. #1: in the short term, the quantity of hardware doesn't matter. If you needed a full data center costing $10M per year, it would still be worth it for some people. The idea is to get into a host that is replaceable, and then you can work on making it smaller. #2: in the short term, you don't need to run in real time. If you are just trying to survive until better tech comes along, running at 1% means the equivalent of 3.65 days per year: maybe enough to survive until hardware improves. Taking this to an extreme, 100 people could pool resources for protection and tech improvement while staying in deep storage and only running their minds very seldom. Given the above two points, all that really matters to me is that I can find a way to upload my mind into binary data which I know can be simulated faithfully. All I need is upload, storage, and a recovery plan. If the recovery plan looks like it will take 1000 years, fine, I still prefer it to nothing. If I think there is a 1% chance of success over the next 1000 years for immortality, I believe I will do it. #3: we know for a fact that the functionality of the brain/body is achievable in the space/power envelope of the brain/body. I could easily tolerate a 100x space and power increase. The human body is approximate 100 watts and 100 litres. So 100x is 10,000 watts and 10 cubic meters: 13 horsepower and the size of a compact car -- fine by me. I think I could survive immobile and incorporeal for 100 years with a good library, if, for example, I had to be anchored to the seabed somewhere and run off geothermal energy. The more you expand your lifespan, the more options open up. If you can run yourself at very slow speeds an immense amount of options open up.

the_duke 10y ago

I recently discovered Black Mirror. It's a great and fascinating series. Finally something other then the mind numbing pabulum that is most TV. I especially loved season 1 / episode 2. --- The way our brain works, all experience, self consciousness and awareness is intricately linked to physical perception. If we were to go the 'brain in a petri dish' route, we would have to fake all those signals a body would send to the brain. If we just start emulating the brain physiology digitally, that is easier of course. But I would not call the result of either method a 'human being', but something inherently different.

internaut 10y ago
Watch Utopia. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia I judge it better than Black Mirror. Don't google any information about it because it will sound stupid, just watch it outright.
Shorel 10y ago
What you describe is the central idea in 'I of the vortex: from neurons to self' by neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinás. Self consciousness and awareness is linked both to physical perception and to the prediction and anticipation of said perception.

internaut 10y ago

There is a TV series better than Black Mirror believe it or not. I'll shill for it because it's an amazing work of art. It's called Utopia, it's a conspiracy thriller from Channel 4, and if it doesn't send chills down your spine and raise your hackles then you aren't alive. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia http://www.channel4.com/programmes/utopia

_andromeda_ 10y ago

Just read on Black Mirror; it seems interesting. Thanks for the recommendation. For those seeking more knowledge on DNI and the validity of cryonics as an elixir of life, I highly recommend getting a copy of Michio Kaku's book, The Future of the Mind.