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AP Calculus was the most useful course I took in high school. It was rigorous, and I scored high enough on the exam to get two free college classes and start fr

AP Calculus was the most useful course I took in high school. It was rigorous, and I scored high enough on the exam to get two free college classes and start freshman year at the sophomore level, which left room at the end of my college career for more specialized courses. There should be some vetting process for the students who want to take AP classes. A lot of the students in my AP Calculus class had no business being there. One guy got a 4 out of 50 on a test once, another guy didn't even take the AP exam, and another guy just put his head down on the desk during the AP exam. But this is really a problem for individual schools and has nothing to do with College Board.

mhb 10y ago
Isn't it kind of weird that a college won't let you take whatever math class you want?
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  No. Tuition only covers a portion of a student's cost to a university. I think it's around 30% at mine. 1) If a class is way over your head the university is wasting money having you there. 2) Having stragglers in the class that are far behind slows down the whole class. 3) Every seat that is filled with a student who is not ready for the class is a seat that can't be filled with a student who could actually pass it.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    > Tuition only covers a portion of a student's cost to a university. I think it's around 30% at mine. Where are you getting that from? Are you just dividing the tuition revenue by the university's budget? Because the university is there for a lot more than educating undergrads.
    - gnarbarian 10y ago
      Most universities aren't primarily focused on research.[1] They are there to educate students. Research does occur at every university, but looking at their research budget as a fraction of their whole budget will show what sort of institution it is. Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Classification_of_Institutions_of_Higher_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Classification_of_Ins... edit: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75
      - jessriedel 10y ago
        > Most universities aren't primarily focused on research. Where are you getting "many" (rather than "some")? The page you link to discusses colleges in addition to universities, and it's well known that colleges exist primarily to educate students. > Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. Where is that numbers coming form?
        gnarbarian 10y ago
        Sorry here is a better source: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75
        jessriedel 10y ago
        You continue to not back up your claim. That link talks about "all post secondary institutions", not universities. Why don't you just edit your original comment to remove the claim?
        gnarbarian 10y ago
        I am using statistics that I know to be true about my university (University of Alaska Anchorage). As far as I know UAA is typical for state run universities. I am having a hard time finding aggregate data online that supports (or contradicts) my claims on a national level beyond what I have already provided. Unfortunately the edit timer has already expired for my comments so I can't delete or alter them. If you can find reliable data that contradicts my claims reply to my root post and I'll be happy to upvote it.
- castratikron 10y ago
  Exactly!
- ebola1717 10y ago
  At my university, they would usually let students sit in on any lecture classes they wanted. But students taking classes they aren't qualified for isn't the most efficient use of educational resources
sotojuan 10y ago
> another guy didn't even take the AP exam, and another guy just put his head down on the desk during the AP exam. I don't know anything about these people but there's two "good" reasons for this: * Some colleges don't take certain AP credits e.g. the college I went to didn't take AP Bio credit, so I didn't take the exam for it when I took the class * Some high schools give GPA boosts for AP classes. For example, an A in an AP class was worth a 5.0 vs a 4.0 in a regular class. Some students may think it's worth it even if they don't do that well In general I agree with you because my AP Calc class wasn't rigorous or interesting at all. It was "here's how you do X, now do X 100 times for homework and take a test on it". > A lot of the students in my AP Calculus class had no business being there Maybe I'm cynical but this was the case at my college Calculus class as well. The entire back row was basically people cheating. There'll always be lazy people in freshman and sophomore courses.
- dataharry 10y ago
  How do you cheat at Calculus? Asking for a friend.
  - thesimpsons1022 10y ago
    from the back row comment i think they are either cheating off each other or have some notes written down.
wutbrodo 10y ago
> There should be some vetting process for the students who want to take AP classes. Is this not usually the case? My high school used to make you fill out a short form and make the case for why you should be allowed in the AP class, and my senior year I had to go in and speak with a counselor who was concerned that I was taking too many. Sure, it was a pointless hurdle for me personally, but I can see how it would be a good idea for students who don't realize what they're getting into, or who are trying to take the course because their parents want them to.
- sotojuan 10y ago
  Depends on the school district and size of the school. For example, Texas high schools are for the most part huge and can accommodate anyone who wants to take AP classes without question. We did check with our counselor but they were more than happy students took AP classes.
  - wutbrodo 10y ago
    It wasn't a size thing as much as for "protecting" students from classes they couldn't really handle. I can't speak to whether that was necessary or not; it's always worked out very well for me to try things that I didn't think I could achieve, but maybe that doesn't generalize to everyone.
spike021 10y ago
>another guy just put his head down on the desk during the AP exam That's too bad. Either his parents were paying the cost of the test (I think $86 per test when I was in school) or he was getting a paid-for test from some scholarship or another.
rconti 10y ago
Most of my high school classes in the later years were AP, and there was no pressure to take AP tests we didn't see the value in. shrug
eanzenberg 10y ago
Same here. I took both AP Stats and AP Calc BC in high school and I'd be more worried about stats being taught wrong to a bunch of teenagers than calculus.
zumu 10y ago
This sounds like a defense of AP classes and not calculus in particular. Mind you there are also other AP math courses, notably statistics.

mhb 10y ago

Isn't it kind of weird that a college won't let you take whatever math class you want?

gnarbarian 10y ago
No. Tuition only covers a portion of a student's cost to a university. I think it's around 30% at mine. 1) If a class is way over your head the university is wasting money having you there. 2) Having stragglers in the class that are far behind slows down the whole class. 3) Every seat that is filled with a student who is not ready for the class is a seat that can't be filled with a student who could actually pass it.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  > Tuition only covers a portion of a student's cost to a university. I think it's around 30% at mine. Where are you getting that from? Are you just dividing the tuition revenue by the university's budget? Because the university is there for a lot more than educating undergrads.
  - gnarbarian 10y ago
    Most universities aren't primarily focused on research.[1] They are there to educate students. Research does occur at every university, but looking at their research budget as a fraction of their whole budget will show what sort of institution it is. Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Classification_of_Institutions_of_Higher_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Classification_of_Ins... edit: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75
    - jessriedel 10y ago
      > Most universities aren't primarily focused on research. Where are you getting "many" (rather than "some")? The page you link to discusses colleges in addition to universities, and it's well known that colleges exist primarily to educate students. > Even if you subtract the research budget out first you will still arrive at a figure less than 50% for most universities. Where is that numbers coming form?
      - gnarbarian 10y ago
        Sorry here is a better source: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75
        jessriedel 10y ago
        You continue to not back up your claim. That link talks about "all post secondary institutions", not universities. Why don't you just edit your original comment to remove the claim?
        gnarbarian 10y ago
        I am using statistics that I know to be true about my university (University of Alaska Anchorage). As far as I know UAA is typical for state run universities. I am having a hard time finding aggregate data online that supports (or contradicts) my claims on a national level beyond what I have already provided. Unfortunately the edit timer has already expired for my comments so I can't delete or alter them. If you can find reliable data that contradicts my claims reply to my root post and I'll be happy to upvote it.
castratikron 10y ago
Exactly!
ebola1717 10y ago
At my university, they would usually let students sit in on any lecture classes they wanted. But students taking classes they aren't qualified for isn't the most efficient use of educational resources

sotojuan 10y ago

> another guy didn't even take the AP exam, and another guy just put his head down on the desk during the AP exam. I don't know anything about these people but there's two "good" reasons for this: * Some colleges don't take certain AP credits e.g. the college I went to didn't take AP Bio credit, so I didn't take the exam for it when I took the class * Some high schools give GPA boosts for AP classes. For example, an A in an AP class was worth a 5.0 vs a 4.0 in a regular class. Some students may think it's worth it even if they don't do that well In general I agree with you because my AP Calc class wasn't rigorous or interesting at all. It was "here's how you do X, now do X 100 times for homework and take a test on it". > A lot of the students in my AP Calculus class had no business being there Maybe I'm cynical but this was the case at my college Calculus class as well. The entire back row was basically people cheating. There'll always be lazy people in freshman and sophomore courses.

dataharry 10y ago
How do you cheat at Calculus? Asking for a friend.
- thesimpsons1022 10y ago
  from the back row comment i think they are either cheating off each other or have some notes written down.

wutbrodo 10y ago

> There should be some vetting process for the students who want to take AP classes. Is this not usually the case? My high school used to make you fill out a short form and make the case for why you should be allowed in the AP class, and my senior year I had to go in and speak with a counselor who was concerned that I was taking too many. Sure, it was a pointless hurdle for me personally, but I can see how it would be a good idea for students who don't realize what they're getting into, or who are trying to take the course because their parents want them to.

sotojuan 10y ago
Depends on the school district and size of the school. For example, Texas high schools are for the most part huge and can accommodate anyone who wants to take AP classes without question. We did check with our counselor but they were more than happy students took AP classes.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  It wasn't a size thing as much as for "protecting" students from classes they couldn't really handle. I can't speak to whether that was necessary or not; it's always worked out very well for me to try things that I didn't think I could achieve, but maybe that doesn't generalize to everyone.

spike021 10y ago

>another guy just put his head down on the desk during the AP exam That's too bad. Either his parents were paying the cost of the test (I think $86 per test when I was in school) or he was getting a paid-for test from some scholarship or another.

rconti 10y ago

Most of my high school classes in the later years were AP, and there was no pressure to take AP tests we didn't see the value in. shrug

eanzenberg 10y ago

Same here. I took both AP Stats and AP Calc BC in high school and I'd be more worried about stats being taught wrong to a bunch of teenagers than calculus.

zumu 10y ago

This sounds like a defense of AP classes and not calculus in particular. Mind you there are also other AP math courses, notably statistics.