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> Safe space for men: A smoking chair at the freemason's lodge where he can network his way up through society without worrying about competition from pesky wom

> Safe space for men: A smoking chair at the freemason's lodge where he can network his way up through society without worrying about competition from pesky women? Well, a space when you can engage in so called "locker room talk" without getting accused of being sexist or rude. Basically, at least for me, a lot of the time, when I'm with women in spaces, I feel judged. I can't say things like "son of a bitch" or "asshole" without feeling somewhat watched. And yes I agree I swear too much, but where's my safe space?

eropple 10y ago
Maybe you, y'know, shouldn't engage in so-called "locker room talk" (because let's be really real here, the "locker room talk" going around right now is bragging about committing sexual assault). That such things can be so normalized should be proof enough that you don't need a safe space. Your safe space (and, as a white male, mine too) is the entire Western world by default.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > Maybe you, y'know, shouldn't engage in so-called "locker room talk" (because let's be really real here, the "locker room talk" going around right now is bragging about committing sexual assault). No, that's reframing it in the context of the current presidential election. The sort of thing that I'm talking about is "Hey, what are you doing this weekend? Oh, I'm going out with this Cuban girl I just met. I hear they're supposed to be tigers in the sack". Notice no sexual assault there, just a conversation females might kick up a big fuss over. "Stop objectifying and stereotyping us." Or even "What happened to your car? Oh, the transmission guy bent me over and fucked me good for 800 bucks to replace some shitty gears he probably yanked out of a junkyard". These things should be allowed and have a safe place where you can say them.
  - eropple 10y ago
    The former is a conversation I--as a white male--would think you are, at best, skeevy, objectifying, and a little bit racist for having. Thinking that is not restricted to women at all. And you can be that kind of asshole anywhere you want to be. But you'll be considered in the context of the world you live in when you do. Why do you need a "safe space" where you can be shitty? Why not just don't be shitty? The latter--I've used very similar phrasing in conversations with feminist advocates and not gotten a bit of static because the context they were used in was perfectly clear and not avowedly harmful, as per your first example. I think you're misunderstanding the objections that would be raised about your speech.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      It's very interesting the quick journey from "skeevy, objectifying and a little bit racist" to shitty and asshole and avowedly harmful. I fail to see how that statement is harmful at all. > feminist advocates and not gotten a bit of static because the context they were used in was perfectly clear and not avowedly harmful Do they even have the right to complain? You use whatever language you want, and they can choose whether or not to hang out with you. "He's boring to talk to, all he wants to talk about is Yankees baseball". Any allegation of misogyny these days or even worse, sexual misconduct will ruin the life of a man. Even if he managed to clear himself of criminal wrongdoing, his career is over.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        That's not so much true as a thing that "mens rights" advocates seem to enjoy saying. In fact: the available evidence points sharply in the other direction.
        jimmywanger 10y ago
        Case in point, duke lacrosse players and Derrick Rose. Heck, Derrick Rose's accuser didn't even have her name made public whereas Derrick Rose had his name dragged through the mud and had to spend plenty of time and money on lawyers. Whatever happened to the legal system being public record? That's the best case scenario. The woman was trying to settle, but ended up trying to sue for 21 million. Again, that is the best case scenario, that you have enough time and resources to lawyer up. If somebody accuses you of something like that when you're at work, there is no due process when it comes to HR. You can sue for wrongful termination, but that's hard to prove and requires expensive lawyers.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Neither of these examples support the point you attempted to make.
- irishcoffee 10y ago
  > Maybe you, y'know, shouldn't engage in so-called "locker room talk" (because let's be really real here, the "locker room talk" going around right now is bragging about committing sexual assault). You're shitting me. The leap you just made from "locker-room talk" equating to "bragging about sexual assault" is holy-fuck-what-the-hell-wrong-with-you absurd. I just can't.
  - eropple 10y ago
    Did you miss "going around right now", somehow? "Locker room talk" has emerged as a defense in the last two weeks for Donald Trump bragging to Billy Bush, with a hot mic, that he sexually assaults women. That phrase wouldn't be being used if it were not at the forefront of the public consciousness, and that it is being used to moderate bragging about sexual assault is telling.
    - irishcoffee 10y ago
      No, I didn't miss it. Those of us who aren't obsessing over this reality TV-show, joke of an election don't think like that. You're taking a phrase which has existed for, oh, I don't know, probably as long as locker rooms have existed, and re-branding it as "locker room talk now equals bragging about sexual assault" henceforth until the end of time. Do you realize how dangerous that is? In the same vein as this article (tangentially): the term "mancave" has been branded forever as offensive to feminists. We're apparently heading down the same road with "locker room talk". Unreal. Again, I just can't.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      No, how do you equate Trump bragging about his success with women to sexual assault? He basically said that if you're famous, women let you do things to them. As an example, he just said "I'm automatically attracted to beautiful [women]—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." He didn't sexually assault anybody, they consented. Where are you getting sexual assault from? And his statement is true once you hit a certain level of fame/wealth.
- whamlastxmas 10y ago
  You're saying people should censor and filter themselves at all times, to everyone, about everything? That's fucked up. Everyone needs a place to be themselves regardless of how often they say things that would micro-aggress people. That's why men find places to have locker room banter. Just because they are misguided by your own standards doesn't mean they deserve social solitary confinement. You should be glad they have the sense to only speak their mind in private settings rather than at the workplace or in public.
  - eropple 10y ago
    You don't have to censor or filter yourself. But objectification and sexism and racism aren't "being yourself" and the idea if it is ludicrous; it's just being hidebound and shitty. Why should you have a sinecure from which to be hidebound and shitty? Why not just not be hidebound and shitty? I would rather they not have the sense to "speak their mind in private settings"; I would like to know who I should not trust because of who they have decided to be.
    - whamlastxmas 10y ago
      This is a really narrow minded and judgmental perspective. I hope some day you encounter more diversity in your life and have more empathy towards others.
tptacek 10y ago
I presume the safe space you're looking for does in fact exist, but that it's located in a country that doesn't outlaw sexual battery.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  That's a hell of leap from "not having to be politically correct" to "sexual battery". How did you get there exactly?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    The specific language you're referring to with "locker room talk".
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      What, "just kiss, don't even wait"?
      - tptacek 10y ago
        Who are you kidding here? If you pay enough attention to invoke "locker room talk", you know what I'm referring to.

eropple 10y ago

Maybe you, y'know, shouldn't engage in so-called "locker room talk" (because let's be really real here, the "locker room talk" going around right now is bragging about committing sexual assault). That such things can be so normalized should be proof enough that you don't need a safe space. Your safe space (and, as a white male, mine too) is the entire Western world by default.

jimmywanger 10y ago
> Maybe you, y'know, shouldn't engage in so-called "locker room talk" (because let's be really real here, the "locker room talk" going around right now is bragging about committing sexual assault). No, that's reframing it in the context of the current presidential election. The sort of thing that I'm talking about is "Hey, what are you doing this weekend? Oh, I'm going out with this Cuban girl I just met. I hear they're supposed to be tigers in the sack". Notice no sexual assault there, just a conversation females might kick up a big fuss over. "Stop objectifying and stereotyping us." Or even "What happened to your car? Oh, the transmission guy bent me over and fucked me good for 800 bucks to replace some shitty gears he probably yanked out of a junkyard". These things should be allowed and have a safe place where you can say them.
- eropple 10y ago
  The former is a conversation I--as a white male--would think you are, at best, skeevy, objectifying, and a little bit racist for having. Thinking that is not restricted to women at all. And you can be that kind of asshole anywhere you want to be. But you'll be considered in the context of the world you live in when you do. Why do you need a "safe space" where you can be shitty? Why not just don't be shitty? The latter--I've used very similar phrasing in conversations with feminist advocates and not gotten a bit of static because the context they were used in was perfectly clear and not avowedly harmful, as per your first example. I think you're misunderstanding the objections that would be raised about your speech.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    It's very interesting the quick journey from "skeevy, objectifying and a little bit racist" to shitty and asshole and avowedly harmful. I fail to see how that statement is harmful at all. > feminist advocates and not gotten a bit of static because the context they were used in was perfectly clear and not avowedly harmful Do they even have the right to complain? You use whatever language you want, and they can choose whether or not to hang out with you. "He's boring to talk to, all he wants to talk about is Yankees baseball". Any allegation of misogyny these days or even worse, sexual misconduct will ruin the life of a man. Even if he managed to clear himself of criminal wrongdoing, his career is over.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      That's not so much true as a thing that "mens rights" advocates seem to enjoy saying. In fact: the available evidence points sharply in the other direction.
      - jimmywanger 10y ago
        Case in point, duke lacrosse players and Derrick Rose. Heck, Derrick Rose's accuser didn't even have her name made public whereas Derrick Rose had his name dragged through the mud and had to spend plenty of time and money on lawyers. Whatever happened to the legal system being public record? That's the best case scenario. The woman was trying to settle, but ended up trying to sue for 21 million. Again, that is the best case scenario, that you have enough time and resources to lawyer up. If somebody accuses you of something like that when you're at work, there is no due process when it comes to HR. You can sue for wrongful termination, but that's hard to prove and requires expensive lawyers.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Neither of these examples support the point you attempted to make.
irishcoffee 10y ago
> Maybe you, y'know, shouldn't engage in so-called "locker room talk" (because let's be really real here, the "locker room talk" going around right now is bragging about committing sexual assault). You're shitting me. The leap you just made from "locker-room talk" equating to "bragging about sexual assault" is holy-fuck-what-the-hell-wrong-with-you absurd. I just can't.
- eropple 10y ago
  Did you miss "going around right now", somehow? "Locker room talk" has emerged as a defense in the last two weeks for Donald Trump bragging to Billy Bush, with a hot mic, that he sexually assaults women. That phrase wouldn't be being used if it were not at the forefront of the public consciousness, and that it is being used to moderate bragging about sexual assault is telling.
  - irishcoffee 10y ago
    No, I didn't miss it. Those of us who aren't obsessing over this reality TV-show, joke of an election don't think like that. You're taking a phrase which has existed for, oh, I don't know, probably as long as locker rooms have existed, and re-branding it as "locker room talk now equals bragging about sexual assault" henceforth until the end of time. Do you realize how dangerous that is? In the same vein as this article (tangentially): the term "mancave" has been branded forever as offensive to feminists. We're apparently heading down the same road with "locker room talk". Unreal. Again, I just can't.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    No, how do you equate Trump bragging about his success with women to sexual assault? He basically said that if you're famous, women let you do things to them. As an example, he just said "I'm automatically attracted to beautiful [women]—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." He didn't sexually assault anybody, they consented. Where are you getting sexual assault from? And his statement is true once you hit a certain level of fame/wealth.
whamlastxmas 10y ago
You're saying people should censor and filter themselves at all times, to everyone, about everything? That's fucked up. Everyone needs a place to be themselves regardless of how often they say things that would micro-aggress people. That's why men find places to have locker room banter. Just because they are misguided by your own standards doesn't mean they deserve social solitary confinement. You should be glad they have the sense to only speak their mind in private settings rather than at the workplace or in public.
- eropple 10y ago
  You don't have to censor or filter yourself. But objectification and sexism and racism aren't "being yourself" and the idea if it is ludicrous; it's just being hidebound and shitty. Why should you have a sinecure from which to be hidebound and shitty? Why not just not be hidebound and shitty? I would rather they not have the sense to "speak their mind in private settings"; I would like to know who I should not trust because of who they have decided to be.
  - whamlastxmas 10y ago
    This is a really narrow minded and judgmental perspective. I hope some day you encounter more diversity in your life and have more empathy towards others.

tptacek 10y ago

I presume the safe space you're looking for does in fact exist, but that it's located in a country that doesn't outlaw sexual battery.

jimmywanger 10y ago
That's a hell of leap from "not having to be politically correct" to "sexual battery". How did you get there exactly?
- tptacek 10y ago
  The specific language you're referring to with "locker room talk".
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    What, "just kiss, don't even wait"?
    - tptacek 10y ago
      Who are you kidding here? If you pay enough attention to invoke "locker room talk", you know what I'm referring to.