4 ms·

A little yeah, but TBH, after I started understanding what it was about I was expecting worse. It's a little difficult to see the differences really between MG

by dudul 10y ago

A little yeah, but TBH, after I started understanding what it was about I was expecting worse. It's a little difficult to see the differences really between MGTOW and "pick-up artists". They seem pretty similar to me, but look like they hate each other.

danielvinson 10y ago
There is a distinct difference in the attitudes of indifference, anarchy, and non-conformity in the MGTOW described in the article vs. the aggression, control, and exaggerated masculinity in PUA community.
- whamlastxmas 10y ago
  >aggression, control, and exaggerated masculinity in PUA I don't think this is a fair characterization for what a lot of people refer to as "the PUA community". Accurate words would be confidence, independence, and leadership. Some people choose to view these attitudes as controlling/aggressive because when comparing these actions to themselves, it erodes their own confidence or self esteem. But that's their problem and they're trying to blame someone else for it.
  - danielvinson 10y ago
    I'm not closely familiar with the current PUA/Red Pill community, just the one of 5+ years ago when I was a bit involved with it, back when it was just a few forums and guys trying to learn from the few people who were successful. The attitude back then, which may be well disguised these days, was incredibly sociopathic - that females only belonged in men's lives from their pleasure, that you would only succeed when you stopped respecting them, and that happiness was achieved by blatantly disregarding whatever was stopping you. This is why negging was so popular as a learning technique - it taught men that there is little downside to just being as asshole to women. The community certainly helped (and helps) a lot of men who suffer from confidence issues, but it also did/does so in a very flawed way, and threw everyone else (namely, all women) under the bus.
    - whamlastxmas 10y ago
      This is not at all what I see in the communities I read. There is plenty of discussion on approaching arguments ("shit tests") but it's not in any way manipulation, it's just learning to not escalate and resolve tension by diffusing it. I've literally never once seen negging mentioned in the months I've been reading. The only type of advice I see about talking to women is "talk to them like human beings and like anyone else" though they do make recommendations on showing indicators of interest (placing a hand on her shoulder as you both laugh about something for example). I understand why stuff like that could be controversial to some, but overwhelmingly it's said to leave her alone if she's not interested or asks you to leave so I would hope that would prevent any sort of triggering or discomfort for sensitive or vulnerable women. I guess if I looked at the more PUA focused communities I could come across the shittier stuff.
      - danielvinson 10y ago
        Yea, this is the difference of 5+ years of the community developing. I'm sure the community has matured well, and it sounds much less toxic than it used to be. That doesn't change the fact that many people were exposed to the previous views.
        whamlastxmas 10y ago
        Thanks for the comment, it explains why I see so much Red Pill negativity and poor connotations. I figured it was irrational assumptions from the other side of the aisle.
whamlastxmas 10y ago
PUA or "Red Pill" more specifically is about changing yourself to be a better, stronger, more independent man in ways that also happen to coincide with what women find attractive. MGTOW is about being a better, stronger, more independent man in your own terms and explicitly ignoring feedback from woman as input as to what "better" means. For some guys, if you encounter women that happen to want to have sex with you, then go for. Others choose to remove the distraction entirely and ignore engaging in sex so they can focus on themselves. Red Pill/PUA participants will sometimes look down at MGTOW because MGTOW has a lot of guys that aren't really dedicated to improving themselves. MGTOW guys can sometimes be bitter about their lack of sex life and try to use MGTOW to rationalize it and feel better about themselves in a sour-grapes sort of way. If there's any "hate" on either side, they're taking it too seriously and not representative of the rational participants.
- dudul 10y ago
  Interesting explanation thanks. (Not sure why my original comment was so harshly downvoted, I genuinely had troubles understanding the differences).
  - whamlastxmas 10y ago
    Because PUA has a lot of negative connotations and it's not clear from your comment whether you were implying those connotations to MGTOW. I upvoted you, for the record.

by dudul 10y ago

danielvinson 10y ago

There is a distinct difference in the attitudes of indifference, anarchy, and non-conformity in the MGTOW described in the article vs. the aggression, control, and exaggerated masculinity in PUA community.

whamlastxmas 10y ago
>aggression, control, and exaggerated masculinity in PUA I don't think this is a fair characterization for what a lot of people refer to as "the PUA community". Accurate words would be confidence, independence, and leadership. Some people choose to view these attitudes as controlling/aggressive because when comparing these actions to themselves, it erodes their own confidence or self esteem. But that's their problem and they're trying to blame someone else for it.
- danielvinson 10y ago
  I'm not closely familiar with the current PUA/Red Pill community, just the one of 5+ years ago when I was a bit involved with it, back when it was just a few forums and guys trying to learn from the few people who were successful. The attitude back then, which may be well disguised these days, was incredibly sociopathic - that females only belonged in men's lives from their pleasure, that you would only succeed when you stopped respecting them, and that happiness was achieved by blatantly disregarding whatever was stopping you. This is why negging was so popular as a learning technique - it taught men that there is little downside to just being as asshole to women. The community certainly helped (and helps) a lot of men who suffer from confidence issues, but it also did/does so in a very flawed way, and threw everyone else (namely, all women) under the bus.
  - whamlastxmas 10y ago
    This is not at all what I see in the communities I read. There is plenty of discussion on approaching arguments ("shit tests") but it's not in any way manipulation, it's just learning to not escalate and resolve tension by diffusing it. I've literally never once seen negging mentioned in the months I've been reading. The only type of advice I see about talking to women is "talk to them like human beings and like anyone else" though they do make recommendations on showing indicators of interest (placing a hand on her shoulder as you both laugh about something for example). I understand why stuff like that could be controversial to some, but overwhelmingly it's said to leave her alone if she's not interested or asks you to leave so I would hope that would prevent any sort of triggering or discomfort for sensitive or vulnerable women. I guess if I looked at the more PUA focused communities I could come across the shittier stuff.
    - danielvinson 10y ago
      Yea, this is the difference of 5+ years of the community developing. I'm sure the community has matured well, and it sounds much less toxic than it used to be. That doesn't change the fact that many people were exposed to the previous views.
      - whamlastxmas 10y ago
        Thanks for the comment, it explains why I see so much Red Pill negativity and poor connotations. I figured it was irrational assumptions from the other side of the aisle.

whamlastxmas 10y ago

PUA or "Red Pill" more specifically is about changing yourself to be a better, stronger, more independent man in ways that also happen to coincide with what women find attractive. MGTOW is about being a better, stronger, more independent man in your own terms and explicitly ignoring feedback from woman as input as to what "better" means. For some guys, if you encounter women that happen to want to have sex with you, then go for. Others choose to remove the distraction entirely and ignore engaging in sex so they can focus on themselves. Red Pill/PUA participants will sometimes look down at MGTOW because MGTOW has a lot of guys that aren't really dedicated to improving themselves. MGTOW guys can sometimes be bitter about their lack of sex life and try to use MGTOW to rationalize it and feel better about themselves in a sour-grapes sort of way. If there's any "hate" on either side, they're taking it too seriously and not representative of the rational participants.

dudul 10y ago
Interesting explanation thanks. (Not sure why my original comment was so harshly downvoted, I genuinely had troubles understanding the differences).
- whamlastxmas 10y ago
  Because PUA has a lot of negative connotations and it's not clear from your comment whether you were implying those connotations to MGTOW. I upvoted you, for the record.