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One interesting question this article brings up is -- is there a legitimate place for gender-segregated institutions in our society? It's a bit ironic that peo

One interesting question this article brings up is -- is there a legitimate place for gender-segregated institutions in our society? It's a bit ironic that people will justify women-only spaces (e.g. a train car[1] or taxi[2]) as creating a safe space for women, but in the same breath deny the legitimacy of traditionally male spaces as being sexist and degrading to women, e.g. the push to make fraternities and sororities co-ed [3][4]. IMO, men have their own insecurities and worries, often with respect to their relationship with women, and having a 'safe space' to work out those issues is not only useful, but symmetrically fair. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/04/472997605/why-i-love-riding-on-the-women-only-car-on-delhis-metro http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/04/47299760... [2] http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/chariot-for-women-female-only-taxi-ridesharing-uber-boston-app-launch-a6978591.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/new... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/09/16/should-college-fraternities-and-sororities-be-coed http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/09/16/should-colle... [4] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-harvard-shouldnt-push-its-all-male-final-clubs-to-go-co-ed/2016/04/22/4ad93da6-0286-11e6-9203-7b8670959b88_story.html?utm_term=.46271dadbce5 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-harvard-shouldnt...

dmix 10y ago
As long as it's voluntary and the other genders can just as easily make their own spaces then I don't see there being a problem with it. But I fear that this won't be the case. I can't imagine male-only organizations/services/etc being take lightly. There is a lot of historical baggage that gets lumped onto these ideas when you reframe it to be for a non-historically oppressed group. These have to be looked at individually with more context than just gender division. Such as why they exist, in the case of female only subway cars for safety in Mexico city. Having experienced the chaos and overcrowding of subways in Mexico city I'm not surprise at all this was done. But I did notice the women's cars were far emptier so these compromises always have trade-offs that need to be considered so they don't add resentment, or further create societal divisions, and end up fueling the problem. There have been white only organizations at universities that were shut down even though the same schools had black-only and asian-only organizations, but there was more context to this issue than just race as the white groups political positions of white empowerment were seen as masking a racist movement (the founder later joined a white nationalist group after leaving school). So it wasn't a straight forward comparison of race equality as they wanted it to seem. So I don't think the idea can be easily accepted/dismissed at a high level without context.
jrkatz 10y ago
Safe space for women: a train car or taxi where for once, she doesn't have to feel the threat of sexual assault, molestation, groping, what-have you. (Problem men in these environments won't usually have cause to fear.) Safe space for men: A smoking chair at the freemason's lodge where he can network his way up through society without worrying about competition from pesky women? I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but bear with me: A lot of the traditional men's spaces look like avenues for social advancement that are closed to women. This may be incidental because men have historically run things and the politicking and networking naturally occurred in spaces where men congregated, but incidental or not, attempting to bar women from traditionally male spaces today has the effect of locking women out of society, so to speak. In a vacuum, a club where men hang out exclusively is no different than a club where women hang out exclusively, but in reality the sheriff and mayor are rubbing elbows at the elk lodge, not at the women's gym down the road. As long as men hold the reins, locking women out of the spaces where men hobnob is another tool of control.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  I agree with your assessment, but the lesson that society seems to have learned is that 'all-male communities are bad', even when those communities are not loci of prestige and power. For example, I think a lot of the hostility coming out of the Gamergate community is partly an attempt to claim 'gaming' as an all-male space. These aren't country-club millionaires figuring out how to buy the next local election.
  - Crespyl 10y ago
    Unless I've misunderstood you, you seem to have a weirdly different view of the Gamergate fracas than I had. I thought the whole thing was a rejection of the attempt by members of the gaming media to paint "gaming" as some exclusively male (and explicitly anti-woman) subculture. There was no shortage of women speaking out as "members" of gg.
    - x0x0 10y ago
      Via the avenue of widespread harassment of women, starting with Zoe Quinn and continuing with Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu amongst many others. Thats certainly a different history.
RangerScience 10y ago
I've heard of a few Men's Circles around LA; there seem to be more Women's Circles, but it's still a thing. And the idea is just what you're talking about, and really, it's just an application of the support group idea: A group of people with a shared experience get together to talk about it. There is an experience of "being a man", and there's an experience of "being a woman". Things really only get tricky when you have people with both experiences.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
internaut 10y ago
We tried having a 'Men's Shed' in our town, but I think it got shut down by a bunch of harpies. That negative experience aside I think it is fine for men and women to spend time apart if it is voluntary. When a member of the opposite sex, even one, is in a group of the other sex then the atmosphere changes. I don't have a better way to describe it, but unsurprisingly it suppresses some activities. I think what I hate most, and I really do mean hate, about the left is how they have damaged something which used to be much stronger, which is male friendship. They associated male friends with homoerotic implications because gay sexuality is their fixation. There is nothing wrong with being gay, I support all forms of civil liberties for gays including marriage, I voted for it in the Irish election recently even though I had to visit 4 polling stations to get it in properly. Nonetheless I believe also that platonic male friendship has suffered badly in the last few decades for no good reason. Gay sexuality does not threaten male friendship, but the politically motivated and constant insertion of it into everyday life, especially through the media has been destructive. Many many men have not evolved a deeper friendship because they were afraid of being sniggered at as homosexuals, and I think that is wrong. If you read books about generations gone by it is obvious that many men had much deeper friendships than they do today. Today those sorts of friendships are not really possible without stupid irrelevant discussions about sexuality.
- internaut 10y ago
  LOL! Somebody has just gone through my entire post history and downvoted all of it. I don't care about internet points jackass. Many men feel the way I do about this. Making who you fuck the main part of your identity is as pointless as making your race the main part of your identity. This is a valid opinion and I'm sticking to it unless somebody has a good argument for why I'm wrong.
  - sctb 10y ago
    We've asked you before not to do this—please stop.
- smurph 10y ago
  I agree that male friendship has suffered a lot over the past few decades, and the decline of overtly exclusively male organisations for adults probably has something to do with that. The only real exceptions I can think of are athletic leagues and religious activities. Basically you can play in a men's soccer league or go to a men's bible study and nobody will think it's odd or sinister, but joining an overtly male only social club will probably be viewed differently. I wonder if the guys in this article would have just joined a local lodge of some kind 50 years ago and been happy with that.
pdkl95 10y ago
> women-only spaces (e.g. a train car[1] or taxi[2]) I'm sure that an equivalent men-only train car or taxi could be established if necessary. At least I haven't heard about any resistance to making that kind of safe space. I don't think anybody is trying to justify gender biased transportation; the difference is simply due to lack of demand.

dmix 10y ago

As long as it's voluntary and the other genders can just as easily make their own spaces then I don't see there being a problem with it. But I fear that this won't be the case. I can't imagine male-only organizations/services/etc being take lightly. There is a lot of historical baggage that gets lumped onto these ideas when you reframe it to be for a non-historically oppressed group. These have to be looked at individually with more context than just gender division. Such as why they exist, in the case of female only subway cars for safety in Mexico city. Having experienced the chaos and overcrowding of subways in Mexico city I'm not surprise at all this was done. But I did notice the women's cars were far emptier so these compromises always have trade-offs that need to be considered so they don't add resentment, or further create societal divisions, and end up fueling the problem. There have been white only organizations at universities that were shut down even though the same schools had black-only and asian-only organizations, but there was more context to this issue than just race as the white groups political positions of white empowerment were seen as masking a racist movement (the founder later joined a white nationalist group after leaving school). So it wasn't a straight forward comparison of race equality as they wanted it to seem. So I don't think the idea can be easily accepted/dismissed at a high level without context.

jrkatz 10y ago

Safe space for women: a train car or taxi where for once, she doesn't have to feel the threat of sexual assault, molestation, groping, what-have you. (Problem men in these environments won't usually have cause to fear.) Safe space for men: A smoking chair at the freemason's lodge where he can network his way up through society without worrying about competition from pesky women? I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but bear with me: A lot of the traditional men's spaces look like avenues for social advancement that are closed to women. This may be incidental because men have historically run things and the politicking and networking naturally occurred in spaces where men congregated, but incidental or not, attempting to bar women from traditionally male spaces today has the effect of locking women out of society, so to speak. In a vacuum, a club where men hang out exclusively is no different than a club where women hang out exclusively, but in reality the sheriff and mayor are rubbing elbows at the elk lodge, not at the women's gym down the road. As long as men hold the reins, locking women out of the spaces where men hobnob is another tool of control.

smallnamespace 10y ago
I agree with your assessment, but the lesson that society seems to have learned is that 'all-male communities are bad', even when those communities are not loci of prestige and power. For example, I think a lot of the hostility coming out of the Gamergate community is partly an attempt to claim 'gaming' as an all-male space. These aren't country-club millionaires figuring out how to buy the next local election.
- Crespyl 10y ago
  Unless I've misunderstood you, you seem to have a weirdly different view of the Gamergate fracas than I had. I thought the whole thing was a rejection of the attempt by members of the gaming media to paint "gaming" as some exclusively male (and explicitly anti-woman) subculture. There was no shortage of women speaking out as "members" of gg.
  - x0x0 10y ago
    Via the avenue of widespread harassment of women, starting with Zoe Quinn and continuing with Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu amongst many others. Thats certainly a different history.

RangerScience 10y ago

I've heard of a few Men's Circles around LA; there seem to be more Women's Circles, but it's still a thing. And the idea is just what you're talking about, and really, it's just an application of the support group idea: A group of people with a shared experience get together to talk about it. There is an experience of "being a man", and there's an experience of "being a woman". Things really only get tricky when you have people with both experiences.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

internaut 10y ago

We tried having a 'Men's Shed' in our town, but I think it got shut down by a bunch of harpies. That negative experience aside I think it is fine for men and women to spend time apart if it is voluntary. When a member of the opposite sex, even one, is in a group of the other sex then the atmosphere changes. I don't have a better way to describe it, but unsurprisingly it suppresses some activities. I think what I hate most, and I really do mean hate, about the left is how they have damaged something which used to be much stronger, which is male friendship. They associated male friends with homoerotic implications because gay sexuality is their fixation. There is nothing wrong with being gay, I support all forms of civil liberties for gays including marriage, I voted for it in the Irish election recently even though I had to visit 4 polling stations to get it in properly. Nonetheless I believe also that platonic male friendship has suffered badly in the last few decades for no good reason. Gay sexuality does not threaten male friendship, but the politically motivated and constant insertion of it into everyday life, especially through the media has been destructive. Many many men have not evolved a deeper friendship because they were afraid of being sniggered at as homosexuals, and I think that is wrong. If you read books about generations gone by it is obvious that many men had much deeper friendships than they do today. Today those sorts of friendships are not really possible without stupid irrelevant discussions about sexuality.

internaut 10y ago
LOL! Somebody has just gone through my entire post history and downvoted all of it. I don't care about internet points jackass. Many men feel the way I do about this. Making who you fuck the main part of your identity is as pointless as making your race the main part of your identity. This is a valid opinion and I'm sticking to it unless somebody has a good argument for why I'm wrong.
- sctb 10y ago
  We've asked you before not to do this—please stop.
smurph 10y ago
I agree that male friendship has suffered a lot over the past few decades, and the decline of overtly exclusively male organisations for adults probably has something to do with that. The only real exceptions I can think of are athletic leagues and religious activities. Basically you can play in a men's soccer league or go to a men's bible study and nobody will think it's odd or sinister, but joining an overtly male only social club will probably be viewed differently. I wonder if the guys in this article would have just joined a local lodge of some kind 50 years ago and been happy with that.

pdkl95 10y ago

> women-only spaces (e.g. a train car[1] or taxi[2]) I'm sure that an equivalent men-only train car or taxi could be established if necessary. At least I haven't heard about any resistance to making that kind of safe space. I don't think anybody is trying to justify gender biased transportation; the difference is simply due to lack of demand.