5 ms·

All I'm saying is I don't like where this is going, and I think it's eerily similar to a path both countries have traveled before. If history must repeat, I'd

All I'm saying is I don't like where this is going, and I think it's eerily similar to a path both countries have traveled before. If history must repeat, I'd rather not have the world's hackers get dragged into the struggle. I hate politics in my technology, dammit.

tptacek 10y ago
I'm still not clear on where you think this is going. He was arrested by the FBI, not rendered by the CIA. He's being charged with a crime. It's a crime that both the Czech Republic and the US have recognized as a crime for a long time.
- CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
  > I'm still not clear on where you think this is going. Further political strife and possibly even all-out war, especially if warmer heads get elected. > He was arrested by the FBI, not rendered by the CIA. He's being charged with a crime. It's a crime that both the Czech Republic and the US have recognized as a crime for a long time. Is he going to be prosecuted in the Czech Republic and (if the prosecution is successful) sentenced to a prison term in the Czech Republic, guaranteed, without any possibility of extradition to US or Russia?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    No, he's going to be extradited to the US and tried for crimes in the US.
    - CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
      OK, and that is exactly the point at which it becomes an international politics issue.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I'm not following. Extradition has been an international norm since before the US even existed. We signed our first extradition treaty in the 1700s.
        lmm 10y ago
        Extradition to a country the defendant never went to seems like a new thing, no?
        tptacek 10y ago
        No, that is also not a new thing. Marcel Lazăr Lahel, for instance, was arrested in and extradited from Romania. I'm sure we can find more examples. What might be new-ish (last 30 years) are crimes you can commit against a foreign state without setting foot on their soil. But I doubt computer crimes set the precedent there; I'm guessing if we look, we'll find some financial crime, or some organized crime, that took place in the middle of the 20th century and created the same fact pattern. Remember as well that the US isn't the only country that extradites people, so we'll probably have a lot of data to look through for examples!
        CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
        Russia and the US are going to bicker over who gets this person, as the article makes clear and you've alluded to. This is just one of many conflicts between both nations that could have far-reaching political consequences. I'm not sure what's more difficult to follow here? I'm not predicting a specific outcome (or worse, detailing some conspiracy theory); I'm just stating that there's a significant potential for bad things to follow this news and expressing my dislike for the general theme of it all.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Russia has no basis for bickering. No norm of international law suggests Russia has the right to shield its citizens from foreign prosecution. US citizens are routinely tried abroad, as well. That was the point of the checklist I provided upthread.
darkerside 10y ago
If the world is entering a new cold war based on cybersecurity threats instead of existential WMD threats (and I believe it likely is), entire national populations are going to be dragged into the struggle, let alone a few hackers.
- CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
  To all countries involved in this hypothetical scenario (or others like it), I have the following to say: Sod off and fight your own battles.
celticninja 10y ago
To be fair, due to Russian non-extradition rules this is generally how Russian hackers are arrested. Whether they are state sponsored or general black hats (e.g carders) the US authorities wait for then to take a trip into the EU or some other friendly (to the US) location and then arrest them. The guy who sent Brian Krebs heroin was a Russian hacker arrested in Italy and many other shave been arrested on their holidays to EU states.
dragonwriter 10y ago
Hackers aren't, generally, being "dragged into the struggle", they are voluntary active participants, for patriotic, ideological, or mercenary reasons.

tptacek 10y ago

I'm still not clear on where you think this is going. He was arrested by the FBI, not rendered by the CIA. He's being charged with a crime. It's a crime that both the Czech Republic and the US have recognized as a crime for a long time.

CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
> I'm still not clear on where you think this is going. Further political strife and possibly even all-out war, especially if warmer heads get elected. > He was arrested by the FBI, not rendered by the CIA. He's being charged with a crime. It's a crime that both the Czech Republic and the US have recognized as a crime for a long time. Is he going to be prosecuted in the Czech Republic and (if the prosecution is successful) sentenced to a prison term in the Czech Republic, guaranteed, without any possibility of extradition to US or Russia?
- tptacek 10y ago
  No, he's going to be extradited to the US and tried for crimes in the US.
  - CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
    OK, and that is exactly the point at which it becomes an international politics issue.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      I'm not following. Extradition has been an international norm since before the US even existed. We signed our first extradition treaty in the 1700s.
      - lmm 10y ago
        Extradition to a country the defendant never went to seems like a new thing, no?
        tptacek 10y ago
        No, that is also not a new thing. Marcel Lazăr Lahel, for instance, was arrested in and extradited from Romania. I'm sure we can find more examples. What might be new-ish (last 30 years) are crimes you can commit against a foreign state without setting foot on their soil. But I doubt computer crimes set the precedent there; I'm guessing if we look, we'll find some financial crime, or some organized crime, that took place in the middle of the 20th century and created the same fact pattern. Remember as well that the US isn't the only country that extradites people, so we'll probably have a lot of data to look through for examples!
      - CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
        Russia and the US are going to bicker over who gets this person, as the article makes clear and you've alluded to. This is just one of many conflicts between both nations that could have far-reaching political consequences. I'm not sure what's more difficult to follow here? I'm not predicting a specific outcome (or worse, detailing some conspiracy theory); I'm just stating that there's a significant potential for bad things to follow this news and expressing my dislike for the general theme of it all.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Russia has no basis for bickering. No norm of international law suggests Russia has the right to shield its citizens from foreign prosecution. US citizens are routinely tried abroad, as well. That was the point of the checklist I provided upthread.

darkerside 10y ago

If the world is entering a new cold war based on cybersecurity threats instead of existential WMD threats (and I believe it likely is), entire national populations are going to be dragged into the struggle, let alone a few hackers.

CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
To all countries involved in this hypothetical scenario (or others like it), I have the following to say: Sod off and fight your own battles.

celticninja 10y ago

To be fair, due to Russian non-extradition rules this is generally how Russian hackers are arrested. Whether they are state sponsored or general black hats (e.g carders) the US authorities wait for then to take a trip into the EU or some other friendly (to the US) location and then arrest them. The guy who sent Brian Krebs heroin was a Russian hacker arrested in Italy and many other shave been arrested on their holidays to EU states.

dragonwriter 10y ago

Hackers aren't, generally, being "dragged into the struggle", they are voluntary active participants, for patriotic, ideological, or mercenary reasons.