4 ms·

At about 40, it does start to get more difficult to get hired. And by 50, it is all but hopeless. And the salary offered begins to go down at 40 too. Sharply

by stray 10y ago

At about 40, it does start to get more difficult to get hired. And by 50, it is all but hopeless. And the salary offered begins to go down at 40 too. Sharply after 44 or so. Where I am now, at 51, I have had to learn to get by on what I was making as a SysAdmin 20 mumble years ago. But at least I have a job. Before getting my current job I was having to learn to get by without a place to live too.

FuNe 10y ago
I'm curious. Where are you based? i.e. which job market?
- stray 10y ago
  Right now I'm in Omaha but came here from Colorado, for the current job.
fecak 10y ago
If you are willing to share, I'd be curious to hear more about your situation. I've seen salary plateau at certain career levels and ages (40s usually), but saying salary goes down at all (let alone sharply) is something that I expect is not a general truth about the market at large. My anecdotal data comes from ~20 years in recruiting engineers. There are several reasons you could see a salary drop (stagnating skill set no longer in demand, move to company that pays less, move to industry that values programmers less, etc.), but age alone isn't likely to be one of them.
- stray 10y ago
  Would a significant gap in employment be that damaging? I was severely burned in an automobile accident (60%, 3rd degree) on June 6, 2006 -- and was completely unable to work for a couple years. It took a little over 4 years total from the date of the accident till I got another job. Every job since then has been with a startup.
  - fecak 10y ago
    A four year gap in employment is a much more logical conclusion to a reduction in salary than your 44th birthday. Even if it was something like an accident (I'm glad you are better now BTW), candidates are sometimes reluctant to share medical issues on resumes/cover letters (and rightfully so in some instances) which can lead to the reader making all sorts of assumptions about why you haven't had a job in n years.
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    If you can explain it -- like you obviously can -- then no, not "that damaging". You've definitely gotten over the hump already (both in terms of recovering from such a disaster physically -- and in finding work afterwards). So at this point, while a 4-year gap will still be a downward multiplier to some, the effect will be relatively mild. Better to focus on the the sheer inner strength it must take (which I, and almost all these people summarily rejecting you, can only begin to imagine) to pull off a recovery like that, and how that makes a much more solid person overall -- and hence, a way better hire.
- VLM 10y ago
  If ageism is the direct cause of the move to less green pastures that kind of circularizes the argument.
  - fecak 10y ago
    I'm not quite sure I follow - how is ageism leading someone to leave?
  - stray 10y ago
    The direct cause of the move to less green pastures was being broke and hungry.
kafkaesq 10y ago
It does get substantially more difficult, but (judging by data points I've gather in RL and from around here), only to a certain degree. Which is to say -- age discrimination is very real, and (other skill factors being equal) will definitely start to bite you by a certain downward multiplier (and undoubtedly far more so in extreme hiring markets like SV). But again -- only to a certain degree. And more so: there a different ways of looking at it, and more importantly, certain things you can do about it -- such that if you groom your skills carefully, and pick the roles you apply for carefully, also -- you can turn your age into an upward multiplier, rather than a downward one. That's my quick take. The main thing is, please don't give up hope -- there's still a lot one can get out of the very substantial skill investments one has made by that age, provided we don't fall into certain traps (perhaps the most insidious being: believing all the crap that SV and a good chunk of the industry believes about the magical advantages that very young hires have over older ones). Am swamped for time at the moment, but perchance, may get back to this topic in a couple of hours.
notacoward 10y ago
I think average salary does go down, but mainly because the "growth track" keeps getting narrower. Seriously, in their twenties just about anyone can keep getting healthy salary increases year after year. It's normal and expected at that stage. By 35, maybe half have been pushed off the fast track, either onto other non-technical tracks or onto a lower technical track. By 40 it's three quarters, and so on. At my age (51) it seems like 90-95% of my cohort have changed roles or been pushed to the fringes where pay stagnates or declines. Note that it's all based on perceived value, which is only partly based on actual value, which is only partly based on skill. I'm not trying to brag or put anyone down here. A lot of it has to do with what I said in another comment about specialization. Nobody wants to pay a thirty-year veteran's salary for a job where they don't already have deep expertise. People who can find jobs closely aligned with their skills and specialties often continue to do OK. People who can't - and it's usually more to do with shifts in the market than in them - get left out. The sad fact is that many older programmers' skills and instincts often do apply outside their area of obvious expertise. Recognizing code smells or knowing how to test code properly are valuable skills in any specialty. So is communication, or scheduling, or being able to recognize and mentor up-and-coming young developers. Most older programmers - not just the few lucky ones - are well able to justify their salaries but never get the chance. That's a "soft" kind of ageism, but it's ageism nonetheless.
LorenPechtel 10y ago
As far as I'm concerned the salary curve says it all. Salary offered = perceived value. The market says we aren't good anymore.

by stray 10y ago

FuNe 10y ago

I'm curious. Where are you based? i.e. which job market?

stray 10y ago
Right now I'm in Omaha but came here from Colorado, for the current job.

fecak 10y ago

If you are willing to share, I'd be curious to hear more about your situation. I've seen salary plateau at certain career levels and ages (40s usually), but saying salary goes down at all (let alone sharply) is something that I expect is not a general truth about the market at large. My anecdotal data comes from ~20 years in recruiting engineers. There are several reasons you could see a salary drop (stagnating skill set no longer in demand, move to company that pays less, move to industry that values programmers less, etc.), but age alone isn't likely to be one of them.

stray 10y ago
Would a significant gap in employment be that damaging? I was severely burned in an automobile accident (60%, 3rd degree) on June 6, 2006 -- and was completely unable to work for a couple years. It took a little over 4 years total from the date of the accident till I got another job. Every job since then has been with a startup.
- fecak 10y ago
  A four year gap in employment is a much more logical conclusion to a reduction in salary than your 44th birthday. Even if it was something like an accident (I'm glad you are better now BTW), candidates are sometimes reluctant to share medical issues on resumes/cover letters (and rightfully so in some instances) which can lead to the reader making all sorts of assumptions about why you haven't had a job in n years.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  If you can explain it -- like you obviously can -- then no, not "that damaging". You've definitely gotten over the hump already (both in terms of recovering from such a disaster physically -- and in finding work afterwards). So at this point, while a 4-year gap will still be a downward multiplier to some, the effect will be relatively mild. Better to focus on the the sheer inner strength it must take (which I, and almost all these people summarily rejecting you, can only begin to imagine) to pull off a recovery like that, and how that makes a much more solid person overall -- and hence, a way better hire.
VLM 10y ago
If ageism is the direct cause of the move to less green pastures that kind of circularizes the argument.
- fecak 10y ago
  I'm not quite sure I follow - how is ageism leading someone to leave?
- stray 10y ago
  The direct cause of the move to less green pastures was being broke and hungry.

kafkaesq 10y ago

It does get substantially more difficult, but (judging by data points I've gather in RL and from around here), only to a certain degree. Which is to say -- age discrimination is very real, and (other skill factors being equal) will definitely start to bite you by a certain downward multiplier (and undoubtedly far more so in extreme hiring markets like SV). But again -- only to a certain degree. And more so: there a different ways of looking at it, and more importantly, certain things you can do about it -- such that if you groom your skills carefully, and pick the roles you apply for carefully, also -- you can turn your age into an upward multiplier, rather than a downward one. That's my quick take. The main thing is, please don't give up hope -- there's still a lot one can get out of the very substantial skill investments one has made by that age, provided we don't fall into certain traps (perhaps the most insidious being: believing all the crap that SV and a good chunk of the industry believes about the magical advantages that very young hires have over older ones). Am swamped for time at the moment, but perchance, may get back to this topic in a couple of hours.

notacoward 10y ago

I think average salary does go down, but mainly because the "growth track" keeps getting narrower. Seriously, in their twenties just about anyone can keep getting healthy salary increases year after year. It's normal and expected at that stage. By 35, maybe half have been pushed off the fast track, either onto other non-technical tracks or onto a lower technical track. By 40 it's three quarters, and so on. At my age (51) it seems like 90-95% of my cohort have changed roles or been pushed to the fringes where pay stagnates or declines. Note that it's all based on perceived value, which is only partly based on actual value, which is only partly based on skill. I'm not trying to brag or put anyone down here. A lot of it has to do with what I said in another comment about specialization. Nobody wants to pay a thirty-year veteran's salary for a job where they don't already have deep expertise. People who can find jobs closely aligned with their skills and specialties often continue to do OK. People who can't - and it's usually more to do with shifts in the market than in them - get left out. The sad fact is that many older programmers' skills and instincts often do apply outside their area of obvious expertise. Recognizing code smells or knowing how to test code properly are valuable skills in any specialty. So is communication, or scheduling, or being able to recognize and mentor up-and-coming young developers. Most older programmers - not just the few lucky ones - are well able to justify their salaries but never get the chance. That's a "soft" kind of ageism, but it's ageism nonetheless.

LorenPechtel 10y ago

As far as I'm concerned the salary curve says it all. Salary offered = perceived value. The market says we aren't good anymore.