6 ms·

I am a practicing physician with 2 years of graduate level course work in neuroscience. Point 3 and 4 are wrong. There is no evidence that SSRIs work by fixing

by khed 10y ago

I am a practicing physician with 2 years of graduate level course work in neuroscience. Point 3 and 4 are wrong. There is no evidence that SSRIs work by fixing a chemical imbalance. There are multiple metananlyses in top tier journals that indicate that SSRIs have an irrelevant clinical effect. SSRIs are almost all placebo with the downside of causing serious side effects. The small effect that isn't due to placebo is probably not clinically relevant. The only cogent defense of SSRIs I have read is http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-yo.... The author is a practicing psychiatrist. The main disagreement he has with the large metaanalyses is that even though the effect size is small it's better than nothing.

_98fj 10y ago
I know these things from a friend who is a doctor and works with these neurotransmitter tests since about 10 years. I asked her how accurate these tests were and she said that, while you can't read everything off a sheet, there are patients, where she can already guess the result of the tests from the bodily symptoms the patient is describing (energy level at which times of the day, feeling of hunger, insomnia etc.). Quite often serotonin is low and once it has been boosted (verified by an additional test a couple of month later) the patient is feeling a lot better. Which, like I said, doesn't imply that that's all there is to mental well-being. These tests also measure stress hormones, which usually are out of bounds as well. > There is no evidence that SSRIs work by fixing a chemical imbalance. I don't even know how one would define "chemical imbalance" in such a complex system as the human body. All I know is that there are average ranges for transmitters and the more somebody's results are inside these ranges, the better he typically feels.
- khed 10y ago
  There is no evidence for the chemical imbalance hypothesis. Your friend anecdotal evidence is contradicted by a large body of emprical research. For a good overview of the evidence on SSRIs on depression I would recommend the article "antidepressants and the placebo effect". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/?report=classic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/?report...
  - kqr 10y ago
    Balls I went deep on this one. Almost makes me want to subscribe to BJPsych or something. So interesting!
- mfukar 10y ago
  I think you should both stop here.
  - Balgair 10y ago
    No way! Having MDs or MD like people on HN is a joy! We talk about the inanities of compsci jargon all the time on this site. Hearing the debates in Bio and the Medical field on here is a rare joy!
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    I don't. This sort of discussion from people in the field and what their friends see is helpful because it can change how other laypeople see the issue. Furthermore, I like seeing these sorts of discussions because I feel they make me more intelligent through gaining a different perspective.
    - mfukar 10y ago
      I'm sorry - no text on Hacker News will convince me the person typing it is an expert in anything. Especially when they present inaccuracies and opinions as facts.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kvb 10y ago
I like the way Scott Alexander frames the effect size. This is from the conclusion the blog post you link: An important point I want to start the conclusion section with: no matter what else you believe, antidepressants are not literally ineffective. Even the most critical study – Kirsch 2008 – finds antidepressants to outperform placebo with p < .0001 significance. An equally important point: everyone except those two Scandinavian guys with the long names agree that, if you count the placebo effect, antidepressants are extremely impressive. The difference between a person who gets an antidepressant and a person who gets no treatment at all is like night and day. The debate takes place within the bounds set by those two statements. Antidepressants give a very modest benefit over placebo. Whether this benefit is so modest as to not be worth talking about depends on what level of benefits you consider so modest as to not be worth talking about. If you are as depressed as the average person who participates in studies of antidepressants, you can expect an antidepressant to have an over-placebo-benefit with an effect size of 0.3 to 0.5. That's the equivalent of a diet pill that gives you an average weight loss of 9 to 14 pounds, or a growth hormone that makes you grow on average 0.8 to 1.4 inches. Note that this is the over-placebo benefit, and placebos already have a large benefit in most depression studies.

by khed 10y ago

_98fj 10y ago

I know these things from a friend who is a doctor and works with these neurotransmitter tests since about 10 years. I asked her how accurate these tests were and she said that, while you can't read everything off a sheet, there are patients, where she can already guess the result of the tests from the bodily symptoms the patient is describing (energy level at which times of the day, feeling of hunger, insomnia etc.). Quite often serotonin is low and once it has been boosted (verified by an additional test a couple of month later) the patient is feeling a lot better. Which, like I said, doesn't imply that that's all there is to mental well-being. These tests also measure stress hormones, which usually are out of bounds as well. > There is no evidence that SSRIs work by fixing a chemical imbalance. I don't even know how one would define "chemical imbalance" in such a complex system as the human body. All I know is that there are average ranges for transmitters and the more somebody's results are inside these ranges, the better he typically feels.

khed 10y ago
There is no evidence for the chemical imbalance hypothesis. Your friend anecdotal evidence is contradicted by a large body of emprical research. For a good overview of the evidence on SSRIs on depression I would recommend the article "antidepressants and the placebo effect". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/?report=classic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/?report...
- kqr 10y ago
  Balls I went deep on this one. Almost makes me want to subscribe to BJPsych or something. So interesting!
mfukar 10y ago
I think you should both stop here.
- Balgair 10y ago
  No way! Having MDs or MD like people on HN is a joy! We talk about the inanities of compsci jargon all the time on this site. Hearing the debates in Bio and the Medical field on here is a rare joy!
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  I don't. This sort of discussion from people in the field and what their friends see is helpful because it can change how other laypeople see the issue. Furthermore, I like seeing these sorts of discussions because I feel they make me more intelligent through gaining a different perspective.
  - mfukar 10y ago
    I'm sorry - no text on Hacker News will convince me the person typing it is an expert in anything. Especially when they present inaccuracies and opinions as facts.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

kvb 10y ago

I like the way Scott Alexander frames the effect size. This is from the conclusion the blog post you link: An important point I want to start the conclusion section with: no matter what else you believe, antidepressants are not literally ineffective. Even the most critical study – Kirsch 2008 – finds antidepressants to outperform placebo with p < .0001 significance. An equally important point: everyone except those two Scandinavian guys with the long names agree that, if you count the placebo effect, antidepressants are extremely impressive. The difference between a person who gets an antidepressant and a person who gets no treatment at all is like night and day. The debate takes place within the bounds set by those two statements. Antidepressants give a very modest benefit over placebo. Whether this benefit is so modest as to not be worth talking about depends on what level of benefits you consider so modest as to not be worth talking about. If you are as depressed as the average person who participates in studies of antidepressants, you can expect an antidepressant to have an over-placebo-benefit with an effect size of 0.3 to 0.5. That's the equivalent of a diet pill that gives you an average weight loss of 9 to 14 pounds, or a growth hormone that makes you grow on average 0.8 to 1.4 inches. Note that this is the over-placebo benefit, and placebos already have a large benefit in most depression studies.