4 ms·

Nowhere in Europe can you cast a vote without a valid ID. Who exactly is disenfranchised by this? Illegal Immigrants? Dead People?

pjc50 10y ago
This is of course false; I'm a UK voter and I've never been required to show ID or even to have ID. At the moment the UK is part of Europe. The identity requirements are managed at the registration stage: http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/what-is-individual-electoral-registration http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr... : every UK adult has an NI number (corresponding to US SSN), which is free to obtain. I believe most of the EU countries which have national identity systems make them mandatory, at minimal cost - and it's a government obligation to make available suitable facilities. Slightly different situation where you don't have one class of people less likely to have valid ID.
- DominikR 10y ago
  Interesting, at least in all German speaking countries it is required to show an ID. Still, who is disenfranchised by having this requirement? Here no one is because everyone has an ID, even poor people. (you are even required by law to carry an ID with you even when you just walk on the street, in case police needs to identify you for whatever reason) > I believe most of the EU countries which have national identity systems make them mandatory, at minimal cost Yes, it cost €22,80 in Austria and it's valid for 10 years. (for poor people it's for free)
  - myrion 10y ago
    No, that's not true either. I've never had to show ID here in Switzerland, not least because I mostly vote by mail. And, since I think it's the same in Switzerland and Austria, you're not required to carry ID but if the Police need to establish your identity and you don't carry ID, they can take you to the police station.
    - DominikR 10y ago
      > No, that's not true either. I've never had to show ID here in Switzerland, not least because I mostly vote by mail. Actually yes, it is 100% correct that you need an ID to go vote at the physical voting booth. (I was asked every time and everyone else who was standing in line too) The mechanism for voting via mail is different, but you still require an ID. The card can only be sent to an address where you have registered yourself to be living, and the registration has to be done with an ID. Also the card isn't just dropped in your mailbox, it can only be handed to you or someone (in person) who is also registered to be living at the exact same address. (for example your wife) If no one is at home you have to go to the post office and get it by showing your ID. I really doubt that Swiss authorities will just send cards for voting via mail to arbitrary addresses for arbitrary persons (or even made up persons). There must be some kind of registration of every person with an ID that proves he/she is living at a certain address as a basic requirement before you can get this. (or it's a cultural difference between us) From what I know the process is even stricter in Germany than here.
      - germanier 10y ago
        In Germany you get an invitation card to vote put into your mailbox. In more than 90% of the cases you only show that card at the voting booth. If your identity is in doubt (e.g. your age doesn't seem to match the one in the voter's list) you need to show an ID. The polling clerks can require you to show an ID for any reason (or without one) but usually that doesn't happen. If you want to vote by mail the ballot is put into your mailbox without any additional ID verification. It's important to note that while the ID is not free, people are by law required to have one and almost all do. The fee is also taken into account when social benefits are calculated. You also are required to register your residence whenever you move and all the letters regarding an election outlined above are only sent to that address.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    .. and the objection in the US is that not everyone has an ID, it's not free, not required by law, and not equally available to all citizens. (There is lots of very specific history of attempts to bar black people from voting or otherwise participating in society. The simplest argument that these laws are discriminatory is that those proposing them intended them that way: "Last week, during the federal trial on Wisconsin’s voter-ID law, a former Republican staffer testified that GOP senators were “giddy” about the idea that the state’s 2011 voter-ID law might keep Democrats, particularly minorities in Milwaukee, from voting and help them win at the polls. “They were politically frothing at the mouth,” said the aide, Todd Allbaugh.") https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... Note that most of the states in the small map that imposed voter ID requirements for 2016 are south of the Mason-Dixon line. https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-...
yvdriess 10y ago
Do not conflate the american voting ID system with a national ID. One is an extra hurdle that opens the door for extra arbitrary barriers (pass this test before you can get an ID), the other is something everyone already has.

pjc50 10y ago

This is of course false; I'm a UK voter and I've never been required to show ID or even to have ID. At the moment the UK is part of Europe. The identity requirements are managed at the registration stage: http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/what-is-individual-electoral-registration http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr... : every UK adult has an NI number (corresponding to US SSN), which is free to obtain. I believe most of the EU countries which have national identity systems make them mandatory, at minimal cost - and it's a government obligation to make available suitable facilities. Slightly different situation where you don't have one class of people less likely to have valid ID.

DominikR 10y ago
Interesting, at least in all German speaking countries it is required to show an ID. Still, who is disenfranchised by having this requirement? Here no one is because everyone has an ID, even poor people. (you are even required by law to carry an ID with you even when you just walk on the street, in case police needs to identify you for whatever reason) > I believe most of the EU countries which have national identity systems make them mandatory, at minimal cost Yes, it cost €22,80 in Austria and it's valid for 10 years. (for poor people it's for free)
- myrion 10y ago
  No, that's not true either. I've never had to show ID here in Switzerland, not least because I mostly vote by mail. And, since I think it's the same in Switzerland and Austria, you're not required to carry ID but if the Police need to establish your identity and you don't carry ID, they can take you to the police station.
  - DominikR 10y ago
    > No, that's not true either. I've never had to show ID here in Switzerland, not least because I mostly vote by mail. Actually yes, it is 100% correct that you need an ID to go vote at the physical voting booth. (I was asked every time and everyone else who was standing in line too) The mechanism for voting via mail is different, but you still require an ID. The card can only be sent to an address where you have registered yourself to be living, and the registration has to be done with an ID. Also the card isn't just dropped in your mailbox, it can only be handed to you or someone (in person) who is also registered to be living at the exact same address. (for example your wife) If no one is at home you have to go to the post office and get it by showing your ID. I really doubt that Swiss authorities will just send cards for voting via mail to arbitrary addresses for arbitrary persons (or even made up persons). There must be some kind of registration of every person with an ID that proves he/she is living at a certain address as a basic requirement before you can get this. (or it's a cultural difference between us) From what I know the process is even stricter in Germany than here.
    - germanier 10y ago
      In Germany you get an invitation card to vote put into your mailbox. In more than 90% of the cases you only show that card at the voting booth. If your identity is in doubt (e.g. your age doesn't seem to match the one in the voter's list) you need to show an ID. The polling clerks can require you to show an ID for any reason (or without one) but usually that doesn't happen. If you want to vote by mail the ballot is put into your mailbox without any additional ID verification. It's important to note that while the ID is not free, people are by law required to have one and almost all do. The fee is also taken into account when social benefits are calculated. You also are required to register your residence whenever you move and all the letters regarding an election outlined above are only sent to that address.
- pjc50 10y ago
  .. and the objection in the US is that not everyone has an ID, it's not free, not required by law, and not equally available to all citizens. (There is lots of very specific history of attempts to bar black people from voting or otherwise participating in society. The simplest argument that these laws are discriminatory is that those proposing them intended them that way: "Last week, during the federal trial on Wisconsin’s voter-ID law, a former Republican staffer testified that GOP senators were “giddy” about the idea that the state’s 2011 voter-ID law might keep Democrats, particularly minorities in Milwaukee, from voting and help them win at the polls. “They were politically frothing at the mouth,” said the aide, Todd Allbaugh.") https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... Note that most of the states in the small map that imposed voter ID requirements for 2016 are south of the Mason-Dixon line. https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-...

yvdriess 10y ago

Do not conflate the american voting ID system with a national ID. One is an extra hurdle that opens the door for extra arbitrary barriers (pass this test before you can get an ID), the other is something everyone already has.