4 ms·

I would humbly suggest that because you and parent (and other people here) have such a different positive experience with TDD, that you cannot quite agree when

by js8 10y ago

I would humbly suggest that because you and parent (and other people here) have such a different positive experience with TDD, that you cannot quite agree when it works, only that it sometimes works, then this is a big indication that TDD is just a placebo. But maybe that's what's needed - a placebo to feel you better as a programmer, and thus making you more productive through your feelings.

crdoconnor 10y ago
I have the same positive experience as both of the above commenters. I've found that there are many other variables which can change its effectiveness though: * The type of code I'm working on * How well I remember/understand the full requirements. * How much of the testing framework is built already and how much I have to build. * The type of test I'm writing. * How new the project is.
- collyw 10y ago
  Yes, TDD seems to involve having a decent idea of the requirements (very un-agile). Many projects are making it up as they go along and iterating to a reasonably correct outcome.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    It means having a clear idea about the requirement you're implementing at that point in time (not un-agile). It doesn't mean that you have to create a big set of requirements up front (un-agile). You can just pick a story, convert it into a test and implement the code, rinse and repeat. Writing the test also gives you a second chance to think deeply about the requirement and fix any problems with it before wasting time implementing the wrong thing.
mseebach 10y ago
I can't speak for the other person, but from my reading, we don't actually have very different experiences. We seem to agree on the value of testing of large/complex project, but have a (minor) difference of opinion over the value of testing in very small projects. Indeed, I'm pretty sure we're deep into hair-splitting territory, as I do agree that TDD'ing small projects can lead to better code, I just don't think the pay off is as obviously big as it is for more complex ones. It's like observing two fans debate which Star Wars movie is the best and the merits of Jar Jar Binks, and concluding that because they disagree, in fact all Star Wars movies must be pretty bad.
- js8 10y ago
  > and concluding that because they disagree, in fact all Star Wars movies must be pretty bad No, I am not concluding that the TDD is bad, if anything, I am concluding that it doesn't actually matter. Anyway, I am not even clearly doing that, I just wanted to entertain the idea that some practices (such as TDD) can be placebo, so they subjectively feel as a good thing despite the fact that we cannot measure any effect. Neither was my intent to touch the moral issue about placebos.. I think if it works for you, do it. In fact, thinking about it some more, there can even be practices in SW development that have nocebo effect, that is, have no measurable impact, but make you feel worse. Daily scrum meeting comes to mind for me.
falcolas 10y ago
> TDD is just a placebo This is my experience. I've watched teams do TDD, only to come up against their first refactor and have to change 80% or more of the tests. Just the other day, they were griping about a code review that they had to do which involved changes to 2,000 lines of test code over a code change with minimal functionality change. TDD has the effect of making you think differently about how you code. Thinking about how you write code is a good thing, but you don't need TDD to make you think differently about your code. You just need to think.

by js8 10y ago

crdoconnor 10y ago

I have the same positive experience as both of the above commenters. I've found that there are many other variables which can change its effectiveness though: * The type of code I'm working on * How well I remember/understand the full requirements. * How much of the testing framework is built already and how much I have to build. * The type of test I'm writing. * How new the project is.

collyw 10y ago
Yes, TDD seems to involve having a decent idea of the requirements (very un-agile). Many projects are making it up as they go along and iterating to a reasonably correct outcome.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  It means having a clear idea about the requirement you're implementing at that point in time (not un-agile). It doesn't mean that you have to create a big set of requirements up front (un-agile). You can just pick a story, convert it into a test and implement the code, rinse and repeat. Writing the test also gives you a second chance to think deeply about the requirement and fix any problems with it before wasting time implementing the wrong thing.

mseebach 10y ago

I can't speak for the other person, but from my reading, we don't actually have very different experiences. We seem to agree on the value of testing of large/complex project, but have a (minor) difference of opinion over the value of testing in very small projects. Indeed, I'm pretty sure we're deep into hair-splitting territory, as I do agree that TDD'ing small projects can lead to better code, I just don't think the pay off is as obviously big as it is for more complex ones. It's like observing two fans debate which Star Wars movie is the best and the merits of Jar Jar Binks, and concluding that because they disagree, in fact all Star Wars movies must be pretty bad.

js8 10y ago
> and concluding that because they disagree, in fact all Star Wars movies must be pretty bad No, I am not concluding that the TDD is bad, if anything, I am concluding that it doesn't actually matter. Anyway, I am not even clearly doing that, I just wanted to entertain the idea that some practices (such as TDD) can be placebo, so they subjectively feel as a good thing despite the fact that we cannot measure any effect. Neither was my intent to touch the moral issue about placebos.. I think if it works for you, do it. In fact, thinking about it some more, there can even be practices in SW development that have nocebo effect, that is, have no measurable impact, but make you feel worse. Daily scrum meeting comes to mind for me.

falcolas 10y ago

> TDD is just a placebo This is my experience. I've watched teams do TDD, only to come up against their first refactor and have to change 80% or more of the tests. Just the other day, they were griping about a code review that they had to do which involved changes to 2,000 lines of test code over a code change with minimal functionality change. TDD has the effect of making you think differently about how you code. Thinking about how you write code is a good thing, but you don't need TDD to make you think differently about your code. You just need to think.