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Potentially contentious opinion, but one that's been echoed through our halls - Developing software and developing tests and test infrastructure are two differ

by hirsin 10y ago

Potentially contentious opinion, but one that's been echoed through our halls - Developing software and developing tests and test infrastructure are two different skills and mindsets that are often inversely coupled. It's not that "incompetence" is revealed by firing the test team (although it sometimes is) - it's that "being bad at writing tests" is revealed. A team with 3 dedicated testers and 7 devs will probably outperform (in code output and reliability) 10 devs spending 70% of their time on testing.

mercurial 10y ago
Not to mention that there is a lot of stuff, especially for UI, that is either hard or impossible to write tests for...
ajmurmann 10y ago
I've actually found that most QA people I've worked with were good at deciding what to test but were awful at writing automated tests. Of course that's purely anecdotal and based on a very small sample size. I like to believe that I sometimes will forget to test for edge cases, but have mastered how to write tests. I don't think that how to write tests is easily acquired by any descend programmer. However, you need to learn a few patterns you otherwise won't need.
- dasmoth 10y ago
  The real strength of QA people can be manual testing. There's a local maximum of "meets the stated requirements but horrid to actually use", and a singular focus on test automation seems to push projects in that direction.
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    Totally agree. I think they are great for what some people refer to as "exploratory testing".
kodfodrasz 10y ago
I have experienced the opposite. After the dedicated QA team was disbanded and repurposed to development, where every developer had to write tests for someone else's code, the code and designs started to become more testable, the tests eventually became simpler to maintain and understand. (the project was and embedded system) The "We" and "Them" distinctions made people in different teams and different roles ignore the needs of the others. The change brought a culture change and also gave a view on the needs of the other side. This could make it possible that for the first time the development of tests and features could really be done in parallel (officially that was the methodology before, but never really worked out well, because the testability considerations were usually ignored at design time, and the docs were lagging, because of the bad bandwagoning culture. With the mixed team where everyone was treated as an equal these problems dissolved surprisingly quickly (in less than half a year)). So my point is having dedicated testers can give base for bad culture which hurts the product and the company. Having everyone do the same job with regards to development and testing is better.
- hvidgaard 10y ago
  There is no silver bullet here. For some teams it makes sense to integrate development and testing. For some teams it makes sense to have dedicated QA people. For some teams a different constellation is optimal. I know developers that are brilliant at the big picture, finishing the implementation however was lacking. I also know developers that cannot get the major architecture right, but they can finish tasks and get it shipped. pick one of each and a devops guy that can write tests, and you have a team of 3 that produce top quality software.
  - kodfodrasz 10y ago
    You are probably right with your example for a small project. The one I referred was a medium sized safety critical piece with dev/test staff of hundreds. My example was for such larger organization. Small teams almost always worked out well for me if a single leader person was present to sort out initial problems.

by hirsin 10y ago

mercurial 10y ago

Not to mention that there is a lot of stuff, especially for UI, that is either hard or impossible to write tests for...

ajmurmann 10y ago

I've actually found that most QA people I've worked with were good at deciding what to test but were awful at writing automated tests. Of course that's purely anecdotal and based on a very small sample size. I like to believe that I sometimes will forget to test for edge cases, but have mastered how to write tests. I don't think that how to write tests is easily acquired by any descend programmer. However, you need to learn a few patterns you otherwise won't need.

dasmoth 10y ago
The real strength of QA people can be manual testing. There's a local maximum of "meets the stated requirements but horrid to actually use", and a singular focus on test automation seems to push projects in that direction.
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  Totally agree. I think they are great for what some people refer to as "exploratory testing".

kodfodrasz 10y ago

I have experienced the opposite. After the dedicated QA team was disbanded and repurposed to development, where every developer had to write tests for someone else's code, the code and designs started to become more testable, the tests eventually became simpler to maintain and understand. (the project was and embedded system) The "We" and "Them" distinctions made people in different teams and different roles ignore the needs of the others. The change brought a culture change and also gave a view on the needs of the other side. This could make it possible that for the first time the development of tests and features could really be done in parallel (officially that was the methodology before, but never really worked out well, because the testability considerations were usually ignored at design time, and the docs were lagging, because of the bad bandwagoning culture. With the mixed team where everyone was treated as an equal these problems dissolved surprisingly quickly (in less than half a year)). So my point is having dedicated testers can give base for bad culture which hurts the product and the company. Having everyone do the same job with regards to development and testing is better.

hvidgaard 10y ago
There is no silver bullet here. For some teams it makes sense to integrate development and testing. For some teams it makes sense to have dedicated QA people. For some teams a different constellation is optimal. I know developers that are brilliant at the big picture, finishing the implementation however was lacking. I also know developers that cannot get the major architecture right, but they can finish tasks and get it shipped. pick one of each and a devops guy that can write tests, and you have a team of 3 that produce top quality software.
- kodfodrasz 10y ago
  You are probably right with your example for a small project. The one I referred was a medium sized safety critical piece with dev/test staff of hundreds. My example was for such larger organization. Small teams almost always worked out well for me if a single leader person was present to sort out initial problems.