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#1: I agree with you. We can't just assume that it must be sexism. Discussions about gender would do better to have more hard data and scientific thinking.

#1: I agree with you. We can't just assume that it must be sexism. Discussions about gender would do better to have more hard data and scientific thinking. #2: I'd like to suggest you give room to the idea that sexism may be both powerful and subtle. The power expresses itself in symptoms like "98% of open source software contributors are male". The subtly shows up in the large number of male programmers who don't notice that there is a problem. For example, an assertive woman in a workplace may be viewed as a "bitch" but an assertive man in a workplace may be viewed more positively. They can each be sharing ideas of the same merit, but our cultural conditioning evaluates them differently. That's the subtlety of it.

natrius 17y ago
Since women aren't making it into the industry in the first place, the assertive bitch phenomenon probably isn't the cause. It's an important phenomenon to recognize in general so it can be avoided, but the reason discussions about this go nowhere and never have much of an effect is because the causes are less identifiable and harder to constructively assign blame for.
- techiferous 17y ago
  Yes, I agree with you here. I would say that much of the causes of low numbers of females in tech jobs can be traced back to middle school/high school years. I don't think that sexism at work is a large part of the problem, but I do think it's out there to some extent. This is actually a very touchy problem. On the one hand, it would make matters much worse if we all started walking on eggshells around female programmers. On the other hand, I don't think it's good to act like there isn't a problem. In some respects, discussing it makes it worse, because it brings the matter of gender to the forefront, when ultimately where we need to go is to make the gender aspect of this all less salient. sigh
  - kevinpet 17y ago
    If the problem originates in school where math and science are perceived as the boys areas, then changing the attitude of venture capitalists isn't any solution. If men outnumber women 10 to 1 with the qualities that are needed to start a tech startup, then I'd expect any tech company to reflect those ratios. It's like saying there's a shortage of tech startups from equatorial Africa. It's not because venture capitalists are racists. It's because you're unlikely get the education and experience when growing up in a screwed up society.
    - techiferous 17y ago
      There are two separate problems. One of them is the shortage of women in tech fields and the other is women being treated poorly in the workplace.
jamesbritt 17y ago
" For example, an assertive woman in a workplace may be viewed as a "bitch" but an assertive man in a workplace may be viewed more positively. They can each be sharing ideas of the same merit, but our cultural conditioning evaluates them differently." Or not. Assertive males are often called "dicks". Assertive women may be admired. That's the other subtlety of it. People trot out vague anecdotal "explanations" that are merely begging the question. "Discussions about gender would do better to have more hard data and scientific thinking." Exactly.
alanh 17y ago
98% is surprisingly high (though of all the OSS projects I've used, forked, etc., I can think of exactly no women contributors). Here's a source: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~scotch/maurer_and_scotchmer_oss.pdf http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~scotch/maurer_and_scotchmer_os... [PDF, p. 13]

natrius 17y ago

Since women aren't making it into the industry in the first place, the assertive bitch phenomenon probably isn't the cause. It's an important phenomenon to recognize in general so it can be avoided, but the reason discussions about this go nowhere and never have much of an effect is because the causes are less identifiable and harder to constructively assign blame for.

techiferous 17y ago
Yes, I agree with you here. I would say that much of the causes of low numbers of females in tech jobs can be traced back to middle school/high school years. I don't think that sexism at work is a large part of the problem, but I do think it's out there to some extent. This is actually a very touchy problem. On the one hand, it would make matters much worse if we all started walking on eggshells around female programmers. On the other hand, I don't think it's good to act like there isn't a problem. In some respects, discussing it makes it worse, because it brings the matter of gender to the forefront, when ultimately where we need to go is to make the gender aspect of this all less salient. sigh
- kevinpet 17y ago
  If the problem originates in school where math and science are perceived as the boys areas, then changing the attitude of venture capitalists isn't any solution. If men outnumber women 10 to 1 with the qualities that are needed to start a tech startup, then I'd expect any tech company to reflect those ratios. It's like saying there's a shortage of tech startups from equatorial Africa. It's not because venture capitalists are racists. It's because you're unlikely get the education and experience when growing up in a screwed up society.
  - techiferous 17y ago
    There are two separate problems. One of them is the shortage of women in tech fields and the other is women being treated poorly in the workplace.

jamesbritt 17y ago

" For example, an assertive woman in a workplace may be viewed as a "bitch" but an assertive man in a workplace may be viewed more positively. They can each be sharing ideas of the same merit, but our cultural conditioning evaluates them differently." Or not. Assertive males are often called "dicks". Assertive women may be admired. That's the other subtlety of it. People trot out vague anecdotal "explanations" that are merely begging the question. "Discussions about gender would do better to have more hard data and scientific thinking." Exactly.

alanh 17y ago

98% is surprisingly high (though of all the OSS projects I've used, forked, etc., I can think of exactly no women contributors). Here's a source: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~scotch/maurer_and_scotchmer_oss.pdf http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~scotch/maurer_and_scotchmer_os... [PDF, p. 13]