17 ms·

If the truth blows up your negotiations, you are a cheat.

tocotun1 10y ago
Who believes the Colombian government has ever had the upper hand in the FARC negotiations? For fuck's sake, they are having to negotiate with a terrorist organisation. It's obvious the gov is handcuffed.
dogma1138 10y ago
You don't know how negotiations work do you? Everyone comes to the table with points that would make the other side walk away, and everyone has their initial redlines. These change during the negotiations, premature release of information backs one or both parties into a corner in which further negotiations are no longer possible. This is the real world, not some fairy tale.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  > This is the real world, not some fairy tale. Indeed. And in this world now, information asymmetry is greatly reduced. Politicians can live with it. The fairy tale is you can hide your dirty laundry until you've fleeced your negotiating opponent.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    It's not dirty laundry its negotiations the deal would become public. Look at how many deals with Iran and N. Korea blew up early own because one side leaked (usually intentionally to tank the negotiations) some information that meant no further negotiations would be possible.
    - oldmanjay 10y ago
      Your point seems to be that because these people want to play a game using us as pieces, we should accept that they should get what they want. You never really get to why, though. You just leave it there, like a religious belief. Care to expand the reasoning?
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        Have you ever fought with your loved one? do you tell them everything? do you tell everyone everything all the time? If so we have a name for that, but you can't really hold a relationship if you act like that. We don't go and broadcast everything that was said to us in confidence, we don't share every thought we have. If say there was an email from hilary saying that "The US would back X amount of billions in guaranteed loans to provide funding for infrastructure informer FARC controlled zones" one party now knows exactly how much to ask for, one party now knows a limit, one party now has more power... Or here is another example say on day 2 of the negotiations there would be some preliminary agreement on how many and what type of sentences would be commuted that's just one small point of the negotiation it hasn't been finalized but if leaked it can blow up the entire deal. FARC can say it's too little, the Colombian government/people can say it's too much, and all over something that haven't been finalized or agreed upon, on something that is likely to change 50 times over during the negotiations. You seem to think for some reason that leaking things prematurely isn't using you as pieces, it is you are a puppet of your emotions and feeding you specifically tuned information is effectively playing you like a string.
        jsprogrammer 10y ago
        It's not possible to tell everyone everything all the time. Further, everyone would be so spammed by everyone else, it's likely no one would be able to know what was going on. It has become (and assuming we are still here in the future, it will become even moreso) easier to broadcast more. The primary reason people don't go around broadcasting everything is because they can't. Most people have been capable of broadcasting very little. Consider what you are arguing (or at least, appear to be): "Yeah, we fucked you over in the past (and we may do so again in the future) and we didn't want to tell you about it (and tried not to [and will try to not tell you about it in the future]), but just play nice and give us this stuff we want, please?" I see this argument continuing to be rejected wholesale.
        nitrogen 10y ago
        So release more information that allows the people to make rational choices. The people are irrational because they are treated as pawns and manipulated with controlled information. If two countries are negotiating in ways that would upset their own citizens, then those countries' leaders should only blame themselves for the way they have conditioned their citizens to behave.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  If it was so important, why the casual nature of infosec here then? Email is not secure. The real reason here is the Clinton/Goldman leaks and everyone knows it.
raverbashing 10y ago
Sure, next time you go to buy a car or a house just show them your bank account balance/mortgage values
- maxerickson 10y ago
  That's pretty much what you do to buy a mortgage. Err, "negotiate" a mortgage.
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    A mortgage yes, but not the house
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      Commodities have prices set by supply and demand. We know how much a publicly traded company makes due to quarterly reports, this has no effect on its price buying a barrel of oil. Nor did my income play a role in buying my house. What I make has nothing to do with what my house is worth. Unless you are a cheat.
      - fixermark 10y ago
        Inconveniently, that's not actually how economics works. Values aren't set in stone; they're negotiations between seller and buyer, where information asymmetry moves the price point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
        cmdrfred 10y ago
        How exactly does that work for commodities? What prevents the buyer from moving on to a seller that simply refues to engage in that practice?
        fixermark 10y ago
neaden 10y ago
Are you opposed to the recent Cuba/US negotiations that certainly would have failed if they were conducted in the open?

Who believes the Colombian government has ever had the upper hand in the FARC negotiations? For fuck's sake, they are having to negotiate with a terrorist organisation. It's obvious the gov is handcuffed.

dogma1138 10y ago

You don't know how negotiations work do you? Everyone comes to the table with points that would make the other side walk away, and everyone has their initial redlines. These change during the negotiations, premature release of information backs one or both parties into a corner in which further negotiations are no longer possible. This is the real world, not some fairy tale.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
> This is the real world, not some fairy tale. Indeed. And in this world now, information asymmetry is greatly reduced. Politicians can live with it. The fairy tale is you can hide your dirty laundry until you've fleeced your negotiating opponent.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  It's not dirty laundry its negotiations the deal would become public. Look at how many deals with Iran and N. Korea blew up early own because one side leaked (usually intentionally to tank the negotiations) some information that meant no further negotiations would be possible.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    Your point seems to be that because these people want to play a game using us as pieces, we should accept that they should get what they want. You never really get to why, though. You just leave it there, like a religious belief. Care to expand the reasoning?
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Have you ever fought with your loved one? do you tell them everything? do you tell everyone everything all the time? If so we have a name for that, but you can't really hold a relationship if you act like that. We don't go and broadcast everything that was said to us in confidence, we don't share every thought we have. If say there was an email from hilary saying that "The US would back X amount of billions in guaranteed loans to provide funding for infrastructure informer FARC controlled zones" one party now knows exactly how much to ask for, one party now knows a limit, one party now has more power... Or here is another example say on day 2 of the negotiations there would be some preliminary agreement on how many and what type of sentences would be commuted that's just one small point of the negotiation it hasn't been finalized but if leaked it can blow up the entire deal. FARC can say it's too little, the Colombian government/people can say it's too much, and all over something that haven't been finalized or agreed upon, on something that is likely to change 50 times over during the negotiations. You seem to think for some reason that leaking things prematurely isn't using you as pieces, it is you are a puppet of your emotions and feeding you specifically tuned information is effectively playing you like a string.
      - jsprogrammer 10y ago
        It's not possible to tell everyone everything all the time. Further, everyone would be so spammed by everyone else, it's likely no one would be able to know what was going on. It has become (and assuming we are still here in the future, it will become even moreso) easier to broadcast more. The primary reason people don't go around broadcasting everything is because they can't. Most people have been capable of broadcasting very little. Consider what you are arguing (or at least, appear to be): "Yeah, we fucked you over in the past (and we may do so again in the future) and we didn't want to tell you about it (and tried not to [and will try to not tell you about it in the future]), but just play nice and give us this stuff we want, please?" I see this argument continuing to be rejected wholesale.
      - nitrogen 10y ago
        So release more information that allows the people to make rational choices. The people are irrational because they are treated as pawns and manipulated with controlled information. If two countries are negotiating in ways that would upset their own citizens, then those countries' leaders should only blame themselves for the way they have conditioned their citizens to behave.
cmdrfred 10y ago
If it was so important, why the casual nature of infosec here then? Email is not secure. The real reason here is the Clinton/Goldman leaks and everyone knows it.

raverbashing 10y ago

Sure, next time you go to buy a car or a house just show them your bank account balance/mortgage values

maxerickson 10y ago
That's pretty much what you do to buy a mortgage. Err, "negotiate" a mortgage.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  A mortgage yes, but not the house
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    Commodities have prices set by supply and demand. We know how much a publicly traded company makes due to quarterly reports, this has no effect on its price buying a barrel of oil. Nor did my income play a role in buying my house. What I make has nothing to do with what my house is worth. Unless you are a cheat.
    - fixermark 10y ago
      Inconveniently, that's not actually how economics works. Values aren't set in stone; they're negotiations between seller and buyer, where information asymmetry moves the price point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
      - cmdrfred 10y ago
        How exactly does that work for commodities? What prevents the buyer from moving on to a seller that simply refues to engage in that practice?
        fixermark 10y ago

neaden 10y ago

Are you opposed to the recent Cuba/US negotiations that certainly would have failed if they were conducted in the open?