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I would love to live and work in Italy (or any other Mediterranean climate country), but there are simply no [tech] jobs. And what few software jobs there are a

I would love to live and work in Italy (or any other Mediterranean climate country), but there are simply no [tech] jobs. And what few software jobs there are are not interesting at all and pay very little. I value my time and I am willing to take a pay cut to live in Europe, but the jobs are not simply there. Why can there be no middle ground? For now, the plan is to work hard and retire early. Real estate price chages in Europe can be considered flat compared to the US.

piva00 10y ago
You can definitely find tech jobs in Portugal and Spain, mostly in Lisbon and Barcelona. They will not pay the same as in Germany, the Netherlands, UK or here in Sweden but you can live very comfortably with a tech salary there, so there's middle ground. Italy unfortunately doesn't really have a well developed tech industry as far as I know.
- donretag 10y ago
  Never been to Portugal, I should look into it. I have been looking to go somewhere for NYE.
- pmontra 10y ago
  Why not? Not many Earth shattering startups but being one of the largest EU economies means that Italy has many IT jobs. I spent the first half of my career in a 1000 people consulting company and a 3000 people mobile phone operator. Then I went freelancing, mostly web, and I pay my bills. There are many SME tech companies, selling their own products and services or consulting. There is quite a difference between the South and the North, two very different economies. If you ever want to try to work Italy go to the North. Probably Milan is the safest starting point. That said, I'm sure that the UK, Germany and France are better off than Italy, even the North of it.
sguav 10y ago
FPGA designer (and embedded sys FW) living in Italy here, must say that tech jobs are possibly some of the few jobs that you can be safe to find here! Now, if tech means webdev I have friends that struggle to pay the bills by freelancing with that, but going down the stack you find much more demand (I have personally found A LOT of demand for EE). Consider that I'm speaking from the northern part of Italy, no idea about the south tech-jobs situation.
- nathan_f77 10y ago
  Are your freelancing friends expats, or Italian citizens?
  - sguav 10y ago
    Both. I guess the issue is that freelancing is not a thing here. Those that get into webdev through a company (especially marketing or nice startups) seem to be doing really well, but they are few to my knowledge.
    - nathan_f77 10y ago
      Oh, I see what you mean, you're talking about freelancing for local companies. That's funny, my mindset is all about working remotely for companies in other countries, especially the US. I'm currently living in Thailand, where freelancing for a local company would mean earning something like $10-15 per hour. I would like to live and work in Italy as a freelancer, but I can only stay for 90 days at a time. Do you know of any ways to stay longer? EDIT: Wow, I should have done some more research. Italy has a "long-term visa". But more exciting than that, Germany has an actual “self-employment” visa for freelancers. I might start with Germany then.
      - mahyarm 10y ago
        Berlin is a pretty fun place.
- donretag 10y ago
  If I wanted to freelance, I can simply do that in the US and solve the work/life/vacation balance myself. I will be exploring freelancing in the near future. I might be too down the tech stack, since I will not find exactly what I have been specializing in. Of all my friends that "majored" in Computer Science in high school (which is what you do in Italy, ITIS Informatica), none of them work in software. Most never have. I heard of one classmate that was working as a software developer. Granted, I graduated a long time ago (well before social media) and have not heard from any of them since graduation. Croatia is another country I like due to the lower costs and good weather.
nathan_f77 10y ago
This is true. I'm already working remotely as a freelancer, so I wish it was as easy as just moving to Italy. Unfortunately you can't do that if you're not employed by a company, or have a ton of money to invest. I just found this startup visa, though: http://italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it/#direct-application-section-ISV http://italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it/#direct-application-sec... I think I might actually look into this.
- matt4077 10y ago
  Assuming you're American, I believe you can get a Schengen visa for most of Europe from any number of countries, including Britain (if you hurry, and it may not be called Schengen since they aren't a member). So try shopping around – it's usually easy if you have ancestors from a country and every country has additional programs for certain purposes (being jewish, for example, gets you German citizenship with no further questions asked).
  - seszett 10y ago
    A Schengen visa allows you to travel freely in the EU, but not to live anywhere unless you actually have a long-term visa for the place. All administrative acts will require you to have a long-term visa in the country you are doing them.
matt4077 10y ago
Software is uniquely suited for remote work. I run a small but acceptably successful startup with one other partner and it really doesn't matter where I am as long as I have a power outlet and internet. (and an hour of internet access is enough if necessary). So I've started spending about a third of my time abroad (more in the winter, less in the summer). Usually it's a week in some southern-european or mediterranean country, from Portugal to Egypt or Israel. Flights are about 60-200 Euros return, accommodation is around 25 Euro/day, and a changing scenery is actually pretty good for creativity. I could spend more time away, but social life makes being at home too attractive. I wish there were a few more people and we could start the compiler-wielding traveling circus :)

piva00 10y ago

You can definitely find tech jobs in Portugal and Spain, mostly in Lisbon and Barcelona. They will not pay the same as in Germany, the Netherlands, UK or here in Sweden but you can live very comfortably with a tech salary there, so there's middle ground. Italy unfortunately doesn't really have a well developed tech industry as far as I know.

donretag 10y ago
Never been to Portugal, I should look into it. I have been looking to go somewhere for NYE.
pmontra 10y ago
Why not? Not many Earth shattering startups but being one of the largest EU economies means that Italy has many IT jobs. I spent the first half of my career in a 1000 people consulting company and a 3000 people mobile phone operator. Then I went freelancing, mostly web, and I pay my bills. There are many SME tech companies, selling their own products and services or consulting. There is quite a difference between the South and the North, two very different economies. If you ever want to try to work Italy go to the North. Probably Milan is the safest starting point. That said, I'm sure that the UK, Germany and France are better off than Italy, even the North of it.

sguav 10y ago

FPGA designer (and embedded sys FW) living in Italy here, must say that tech jobs are possibly some of the few jobs that you can be safe to find here! Now, if tech means webdev I have friends that struggle to pay the bills by freelancing with that, but going down the stack you find much more demand (I have personally found A LOT of demand for EE). Consider that I'm speaking from the northern part of Italy, no idea about the south tech-jobs situation.

nathan_f77 10y ago
Are your freelancing friends expats, or Italian citizens?
- sguav 10y ago
  Both. I guess the issue is that freelancing is not a thing here. Those that get into webdev through a company (especially marketing or nice startups) seem to be doing really well, but they are few to my knowledge.
  - nathan_f77 10y ago
    Oh, I see what you mean, you're talking about freelancing for local companies. That's funny, my mindset is all about working remotely for companies in other countries, especially the US. I'm currently living in Thailand, where freelancing for a local company would mean earning something like $10-15 per hour. I would like to live and work in Italy as a freelancer, but I can only stay for 90 days at a time. Do you know of any ways to stay longer? EDIT: Wow, I should have done some more research. Italy has a "long-term visa". But more exciting than that, Germany has an actual “self-employment” visa for freelancers. I might start with Germany then.
    - mahyarm 10y ago
      Berlin is a pretty fun place.
donretag 10y ago
If I wanted to freelance, I can simply do that in the US and solve the work/life/vacation balance myself. I will be exploring freelancing in the near future. I might be too down the tech stack, since I will not find exactly what I have been specializing in. Of all my friends that "majored" in Computer Science in high school (which is what you do in Italy, ITIS Informatica), none of them work in software. Most never have. I heard of one classmate that was working as a software developer. Granted, I graduated a long time ago (well before social media) and have not heard from any of them since graduation. Croatia is another country I like due to the lower costs and good weather.

nathan_f77 10y ago

This is true. I'm already working remotely as a freelancer, so I wish it was as easy as just moving to Italy. Unfortunately you can't do that if you're not employed by a company, or have a ton of money to invest. I just found this startup visa, though: http://italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it/#direct-application-section-ISV http://italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it/#direct-application-sec... I think I might actually look into this.

matt4077 10y ago
Assuming you're American, I believe you can get a Schengen visa for most of Europe from any number of countries, including Britain (if you hurry, and it may not be called Schengen since they aren't a member). So try shopping around – it's usually easy if you have ancestors from a country and every country has additional programs for certain purposes (being jewish, for example, gets you German citizenship with no further questions asked).
- seszett 10y ago
  A Schengen visa allows you to travel freely in the EU, but not to live anywhere unless you actually have a long-term visa for the place. All administrative acts will require you to have a long-term visa in the country you are doing them.

matt4077 10y ago

Software is uniquely suited for remote work. I run a small but acceptably successful startup with one other partner and it really doesn't matter where I am as long as I have a power outlet and internet. (and an hour of internet access is enough if necessary). So I've started spending about a third of my time abroad (more in the winter, less in the summer). Usually it's a week in some southern-european or mediterranean country, from Portugal to Egypt or Israel. Flights are about 60-200 Euros return, accommodation is around 25 Euro/day, and a changing scenery is actually pretty good for creativity. I could spend more time away, but social life makes being at home too attractive. I wish there were a few more people and we could start the compiler-wielding traveling circus :)